# Salvation by Natural Instead of Supernatural Means

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/salvation-by-natural-instead-of-supernatural-means/12850>\
**Category:** Conversation\
**Created:** [December 23, 2020, 6:00am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/salvation-by-natural-instead-of-supernatural-means/12850 "2020-12-23T06:00:10Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 1\
**Showing post:** 6

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/salvation-by-natural-instead-of-supernatural-means/12850/6 "2020-12-23T15:08:47Z")

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You have a busy mind. Regarding Hitchens, one could quickly cite a lot of Bible passages why he’s wrong to apply what he says to Christianity. I think I can say unequivocally - no Christian who understands his faith correctly loves death. Sometimes I think ideas about the rapture are just a cheap escape from the problems of this world - but there are many “solutions” that offer such escapes.

> [@Was There a “Fall” or Did Augustine Really Screw Everything Up?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/was-there-a-fall-or-did-augustine-really-screw-everything-up/12849/16):
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> If God uses evolution to make humans (with many deaths along the way), why cannot God use science to lead humans to eternal life?

I’m not sure I can disagree, given my view that evolution leading to humans doesn’t really make sense of the cross and I think it also doesn’t make sense of Jesus’ return.

> [@Was There a “Fall” or Did Augustine Really Screw Everything Up?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/was-there-a-fall-or-did-augustine-really-screw-everything-up/12849/16):
>
> What if Christianity had got the order wrong - we sin because we have not lived long enough? The longer we live, the wiser we become, knowing the difference between Good and Evil - We commit evil because we are not old enough to be wise enough.

Is there scientific evidence to show we can more quickly make correct moral judgments with age? Is it universal?

> [@Was There a “Fall” or Did Augustine Really Screw Everything Up?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/was-there-a-fall-or-did-augustine-really-screw-everything-up/12849/13):
>
> What is your view NT Wright’s view that the Second Coming will not lead to a destruction of the Earth and all of us go to a new Heaven, but that Heaven will come down and combine with Earth?

Read Revelation - and 2 Peter 3 is quite clear. What do you think a biblical position should be?

> But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [[d](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-30533d)]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner _of persons_ ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

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