Speir Explains His YEC View


(r_speir) #66

@MStrauss in line with the topic here, I am soliciting a response after reading your article

There are biblical references to the “people of Eden” (see 2 Kings 19:12, Is 37:12).

“Trees,” nations, were in the garden of God (Ez 31:9). Some were “driven out” (Ez 31:11). The “trees of Eden” – nations of peoples – were brought low (Ez 31:18).

We are not told how long Adam and Eve were in the garden. Their mandate was to populate and subdue the planet. They may have borne many children with little or no effort on Eve’s part. Families, tribes, nations may have increased in number. As the heads of those families rebelled, they and their offspring would have been expelled from the garden. It may have been that lastly, after an unknown span of time, Adam and Eve sinned and were cast out. After great effort in birthing Cain outside the garden, Eve may have experienced a physical and psychological attachment to her offspring for the first time, thus evoking a verbal exclamation that she had acquired a man from the Lord.

Simply put, the people outside the garden may have been Adam and Eve’s offspring. Can you comment on that thought?


(r_speir) #67

Meaning, that whereas before, in the garden, the effort was minimal, now, outside the garden and after great effort, she had acquired a man “with the help of the Lord”.


(George) #68

@r_speir,

My my… hardly anyone knows about that Eden. Do you think even Evangelicals agree with you that text as late as 2 Kings 19 would refer to people of “Adam’s Eden”?

Here’s an ancient discussion of Telassar - - which refers to some “Assyrian Hill”!


(r_speir) #69

You’re complaining again with no substance.


(Retired Professor & Minister.) #70

No. Not at all. @gbrooks9 is telling you what any solid Ezekiel commentary would tell you.

Eden was a region. Perhaps even a large region. In the time of Ezekiel it was geographically associated with the territory of Assyria. Don’t assume that the word Eden is a synonym for the garden of Eden.. (That’s like assuming that Texas is a synonym for San Antonio, a place within Texas. Worse yet, in some of your explanations it is as if you are confusing the State of Texas in our day with the the fall of the Alamo in 1836, a confusion of place and time.)

Ezekiel 31 is allegorical. Obviously. It explains that Egypt will fall in judgement just as Assyria was judged. It is not describing events during the lives of Adam and Eve or the Genesis garden in the Eden region.


(Retired Professor & Minister.) #71

(1) POSTSCRIPT: I have significantly edited my previous post in order to provide more explanatory details.

(2) @r_speir, I’ve addressed your questions on various forum threads but you are still dodging mine. I’ll repeat my question to you about the Haymond Formation yet again:

I asked you about the Haymond Formation’s 15,000 alternating sedimentary layers of sandstone and shale, each layer complete with its own independent animal burrows/tunnels and plant root casts. I’m curious as to how the Noahic flood could have deposited all, or even some of those layers, in a single year. I’ve been asking that question for years but have never gotten any kind of answer from YECs or those with similar Noah’s flood viewpoints.

You’ve made many bold statements about sedimentary deposits and radiometric dating. Massive quantities of evidence weigh against your positions. You keep avoiding questions about the empirical evidence which devastates your claims.


(r_speir) #72

You are completely fabricating your response. You have no idea if what you are saying is even true.


(Retired Professor & Minister.) #73

Repeating what has been the view of countless Christian theologians (and Jewish rabbis) for many centuries is “fabricating”???

So you say. Was my seminary education and many years of exegesis study for naught?

How do you know that “what you are saying is even true?” You have repeatedly denied long established peer-reviewed science—and without providing any compelling evidence for your bombastic claims.


(Herculean Skeptic) #74

This is unacceptable and inappropriate. If you’d like to participate here, then show the respect that is due, when it is due.


(30-year veteran) #75

It’s more like assuming that Boston (Massachusetts) is a synonym for Boston (Lincolnshire).


(Retired Professor & Minister.) #76

Some forum participants in the USA may not be aware that there is a city of Boston in England (or even a shire called Lincolnshire.) For them, Plymouth (Massachusetts) might be a helpful example because most Americans learned that the Pilgrims named their new village after Plymouth, England, their port of departure.


(George) #77

For the many purists out there… Boston, England’s original name was St. Botolph’s Town, named after an Abbot whose name is more authentically rendered as Botwulf of Thorney!

Signed:

George
Yours in Botwulf
Born a few miles outside of Boston, Massachusetts (Indigenous Tribe: the Mosswetusett)


(r_speir) #78

Go ahead and suspend me but before you do you should prove this

  1. That the “people of Eden” being referred to were not known descendants of a family, clan, or tribe expelled millennia earlier from the literal Garden of Eden.
  2. That the “people of Eden” was not a derogatory label placed on a people group associated with ancient Assyria, once as a “cedar in Lebanon” (Ez 31), known for their opulence and arrogance, later brought low as were all the “trees of Eden”, the literal Garden of God.

(Retired Professor & Minister.) #79

@Michael_Callen said nothing about suspension. (Why are you refusing to read with comprehension?) He asked you to show common courtesy by respecting others.

Why do you keep imposing burdens of proof upon others while ignoring our requests that you support your positions with compelling evidence? Also, it is you who is denying well-evidence, long-established peer-review scholarship. If you truly believe that the academy is wrong and that you have made impressive discoveries, why do you keep dodging our requests for answers to our questions and for the posting of your evidence?

You are ignoring the appropriate assignment of burdens of proof.

You are making this claim about the “people of Eden” in Ezekiel 31. So the burden of proof is on you.

You are asking that others “prove” a negative instead of providing compelling evidence for your own claim.


(Herculean Skeptic) #80

I find it interesting that you did not seem to consider the option (which was the sole reason for my reply) to show respect. Any reason why this is so?


(r_speir) #81

You are trying to throw ambiguity on the term – ambiguity which did not exist. Eden was known everywhere throughout all cultures as the place of beginnings. And ancient Assyria was everywhere at its height – if not literally, then certainly by influence. All peoples – all “Assyria”, if you will – were descendants of Eden, the literal place of beginnings.

A modern day counterpart would be the term “out of Africa”. (Of course, I don’t believe this but) The peopling of the earth is today assumed to be centered on Africa.

“People of Eden” was not an ambiguous anthropological term in the ancient world. “Out of Africa” is not an ambiguous anthropological term today.

I don’t have to prove a priori knowledge, whether possessed by ancients or us today.


#82

Wait, what!?


#83

That doesn’t compute. Here is the Iroquois creation myth, and it is nothing like Eden.


(Chris Falter) #84

I am not a professional historian, but I am somewhat familiar with the origin accounts of many ancuent cultures (Mayan, Aztec, Babylonian, Sanskrit, Hebrew). The only one of these with a recognizable Eden is the ancient Hebrew culture, as far as I can tell.

Thus I do not understand your statement, @r_speir. Do you need to qualify something in the sentence I quoted? How loose is your definition of Eden?

Also, I would be grateful if you could address the questions I posed way back in post #19. I am curious as to what hypothesis a YEC framework would advance with respect to radiometric dates of rock formations that are in fact 4000 years old.

Thanks,
Chris Falter


(r_speir) #85

Eden to the Hebrews, the place of beginnings to everyone else. Same spot, location.