# The Argument Clinic

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Comments\
**Created:** [November 22, 2022, 2:16pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561 "2022-11-22T14:16:20Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 2:16pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/1 "2022-11-22T14:16:20Z")

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If you find your comments moved here, it’s because I didn’t have time to do anything better with them. I may have already asked that you take action to self-moderate, and so avoid imposing on moderator’s time.

So anyway, here we are.

[![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/1/1b86bd0d2b924fcf9c130553112e83910ba24e8e.jpeg "Argument") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k)

If you find your comments moved here, it’s because I didn’t have time to do anything better with them. I may have already asked that you take action to self-moderate, and so avoid imposing on moderator’s time.

So anyway, here we are.

[![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/1/1b86bd0d2b924fcf9c130553112e83910ba24e8e.jpeg "Argument") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k)

**Edit to add …**

Because someone asked, this thread is not entirely unmoderated, but mods are unlikely to intervene. In principle _no one should be replying to anything_ here, so comment at your own risk.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 3:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/2 "2022-11-22T15:43:11Z")

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I’m sorry; this is Abuse.

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**Author:** ![faded\_Glory](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faded_glory/32/7167_2.png) [@faded\_Glory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/faded_Glory)\
**Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 12:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/3 "2022-11-21T12:20:35Z")

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> [@The most current scientific evidence for the existence of God?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-most-current-scientific-evidence-for-the-existence-of-god/15549/84):
>
> It seems to me entirely reasonable to ask the guy that used the word, what he meant by it. No?

Yes, I agree. Still, my point is that evidence has to relate to a particular proposition, and if there are competing propositions, evidence has to weigh more in favour of one than the other for it to be meaningful. That is why I asked what the differences might be between a universe without God and a universe with God but one that hides himself. If we can’t tell, how do we know what sort of evidence might decide between them?

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 3:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/4 "2022-11-21T15:35:45Z")

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> [@The most current scientific evidence for the existence of God?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-most-current-scientific-evidence-for-the-existence-of-god/15549/73):
>
> It would be helpful in assessing the value added by your comment for you to define evidence.

Perhaps if I give an example? Until about the mid-20th century, many (if not most) astronomers and cosmologists believed in a steady state model of the universe. However, it was then discovered that all observed galaxies show a red shift, indicating they are all moving away from us. This would not be predicted by a steady state model, and instead indicated an expanding universe consistent with the Big Bang model. Subsequently, [other highly specific and empirically measurable predictions](https://www.schoolsobservatory.org/learn/astro/cosmos/bigbang/bb_evid) of the Big Bang were confirmed, and now pretty well every scientist rejects the Steady State model in favour of the Big Bang.

That is not the case for God. Even though there are scientists who are personally convinced one god or another exists, they will not usually claim that this has been established as a _scientific_ fact.

Why is that? It seems to me that, by far, the most plausible explanation is that scientific evidence does not point conclusively to the existence of a god. Do you disagree?

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [November 21, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/5 "2022-11-21T20:26:28Z")

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> [@The most current scientific evidence for the existence of God?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-most-current-scientific-evidence-for-the-existence-of-god/15549/99):
>
> Not particularly. I’d be surprised that there aren’t some. Would you be surprised to find some "big Dawkins fans here?

Yes, that prompted my comment.

> [@The most current scientific evidence for the existence of God?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-most-current-scientific-evidence-for-the-existence-of-god/15549/99):
>
> > [@The most current scientific evidence for the existence of God?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-most-current-scientific-evidence-for-the-existence-of-god/15549/94):
> >
> > If not, why bring him up instead of having an actual discussion with the people here?
> 
> Well to start with, I was directing the comment to an individual person.

I know. Is that person a Dawkins fan?

> [@The most current scientific evidence for the existence of God?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-most-current-scientific-evidence-for-the-existence-of-god/15549/99):
>
> Is that a problem for you? Why the offense?

Those are my questions for you.

> [@The most current scientific evidence for the existence of God?](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-most-current-scientific-evidence-for-the-existence-of-god/15549/99):
>
> And I was desiring to see how Dawkins’s materialist view of there being no good, fit with faded Glory’s idea that love is an abstraction.

That didn’t come across very well.

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**Author:** ![Sam](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/sam/32/11437_2.png) [@Sam](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Sam)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 1:52pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/6 "2022-11-22T13:52:44Z")

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> [@faded\_Glory](#):
>
> If we can’t tell, how do we know what sort of evidence might decide between them?

Are there different types of evidence? How about starting with a definition for that word.

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**Author:** ![Sam](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/sam/32/11437_2.png) [@Sam](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Sam)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 1:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/7 "2022-11-22T13:53:06Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Perhaps if I give an example?

Thanks, but no thanks. How about a definition?

> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> they will not usually claim that this has been established as a _scientific_ fact.

Isn’t that conflating fact with evidence? I’m don’t think I’ve heard of a theist claim that they can prove that God exists. But I have heard them claim that their is evidence that God exists.

> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> It seems to me that, by far, the most plausible explanation is that scientific evidence does not point conclusively to the existence of a god

So why are you using that word evidence without defining it?

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**Author:** ![Sam](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/sam/32/11437_2.png) [@Sam](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Sam)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 1:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/8 "2022-11-22T13:53:17Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> Yes, that prompted my comment.

Have I got this right, you’d be surprised there are Dawkins fans here?

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> Is that person a Dawkins fan?

I don’t know. He hasn’t said one way or the other. Maybe it is not important to him.

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> Those are my questions for you.

But they weren’t. They were however clearly my questions for you. Why decline them?

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> That didn’t come across very well.

Maybe not. He hasn’t complained.

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**Author:** ![faded\_Glory](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faded_glory/32/7167_2.png) [@faded\_Glory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/faded_Glory)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 2:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/9 "2022-11-22T14:41:51Z")

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The first definition that came up when I googled it is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”

Sounds fine to me. Now, do we stay in the weeds or shall we have an actual discussion? What would the world look like if there was no God? Would it be different than if there was a God but he choses to remain hidden? Care to comment on this?

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**Author:** ![misterme987](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/misterme987/32/15207_2.png) [@misterme987](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/misterme987)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2022, 6:01pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/10 "2022-11-22T18:01:57Z")

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> [@Sam](#):
>
> Have I got this right, you’d be surprised there are Dawkins fans here?

@Mercer has said that two different ways already…

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**Author:** ![Sam](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/sam/32/11437_2.png) [@Sam](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Sam)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 2:33am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/11 "2022-11-23T02:33:57Z")

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> [@faded\_Glory](#):
>
> What would the world look like if there was no God?

Seem rather question-begging.  
If God exists and created the world it seems likely that the world wouldn’t exist if he didn’t exist. **It** would look like nothing looks like. It (in the case that God is necessary for the world to exist) would look like nothing because it would be nothing.

On the other hand, if God does not exist, the world would look like it does now.

Seem similar if a person through undetected fraud won the Powerball lottery 10 times consecutively. The case of winning by means of fraud would look exactly like if someone did it without fraud. Even in the absence of fraud, it would seem that one would be justified to be suspicious that fraud had been involved.

> [@faded\_Glory](#):
>
> Would it be different than if there was a God but he choses to remain hidden?

I’m not sure I understand the question. Can I assume that you believe that if a God exists now, he is hidden? Some people believe that he does exist now and is not hidden. But even those people don’t think that they are able to literally see him. Rather they think they see evidence of him.  
So if I’m kind of close to understanding the question, I don’t think there would be a difference in the way the world looks.

According to you and according to the definition of evidence you’ve provided, does the fine-tuning of the universe for life count as evidence for God?

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**Author:** ![faded\_Glory](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faded_glory/32/7167_2.png) [@faded\_Glory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/faded_Glory)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 4:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/12 "2022-11-23T16:07:11Z")

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> [@Sam](#):
>
> **It** would look like nothing looks like. It (in the case that God is necessary for the world to exist) would look like nothing because it would be nothing.

Earlier you raised the point of question-begging. I suggest that what you write here is very much question begging itself. You make a claim without presenting anything to back it up. “God exists because without God nothing would exist”. Your evidence for this is, what, exactly? This only works for people who already believe in God, and they don’t need this claim. However, if I don’t believe in God, why would I find your argument here even remotely convincing?

> [@Sam](#):
>
> Can I assume that you believe that if a God exists now, he is hidden?

Not necessarly, I am just presenting a position that many believers hold: God prefers to remain hidden so as to preserve Free Will (although, granted, they don’t explain why Jesus, who is God, went round doing miracles in full view of lots of people).

> [@Sam](#):
>
> According to you and according to the definition of evidence you’ve provided, does the fine-tuning of the universe for life count as evidence for God?

No. It might do if there are no alternative explanations on the table. There is of course the multiverse idea: there are an infinite number of universes, all different, and we happen to live in one where fine-tuning exists. So, the evidence is equally strong for multiverses as for one universe with God. In other words, the finetuning isn’t evidence for the one or the other situation at all.

For clarity, I’m not advocating this one or any other explanations (and yes there might be others). In reality we simply don’t know, so it isn’t really justified to make categorical statements about the nature of the evidence. We don’t know what we don’t know and there is nothing wrong with admitting that (unless you favour Pascal’s wager, but that comes with other problems).

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 4:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/13 "2022-11-23T16:20:18Z")

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> [@Sam](#):
>
> Can I assume that you believe that if a God exists now, he is hidden?

Not necessarily. He could be pretending to believe on his own time.

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**Author:** ![Argon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/argon/32/3896_2.png) [@Argon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Argon)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 6:23pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/14 "2022-11-23T18:23:42Z")

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It is, however, the expected behavior of an Ironic Designer.

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**Author:** ![faded\_Glory](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faded_glory/32/7167_2.png) [@faded\_Glory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/faded_Glory)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 9:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/15 "2022-11-23T21:11:29Z")

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Gottes Zeit ist die allerbeste Zeit.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 9:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/16 "2022-11-23T21:31:46Z")

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> [@Sam](#):
>
> According to you and according to the definition of evidence you’ve provided, does the fine-tuning of the universe for life count as evidence for God?

According to you (not anyone else), is there good evidence for fine-tuning? Again, please cite evidence. Citing rhetoric instead is a tacit admission that you don’t have evidence.

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**Author:** ![Sam](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/sam/32/11437_2.png) [@Sam](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Sam)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/17 "2022-11-23T21:51:52Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> According to you (not anyone else)

You’ve polled everyone?

> [@Mercer](#):
>
> Citing rhetoric

Does one “cite” rhetoric? Or does one use rhetoric? Have I cited rhetoric? Where was that?

Regardless,

“A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics … and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.”

- Fred Hoyle  
“Wherever physicists look, they see examples of fine tuning.”
- Sir Martin Rees  
“The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life.”
- Stephen Hawking  
“If anyone claims not to be surprised by the special features the universe has, he is hiding his head in the sand. These special features are surprising and unlikely.”
- David Deutsch  
“There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all …it seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the universe. The impression of design is overwhelming.”
- Paul Davies  
“Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the right conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say ‘supernatural’) plan.”
- Arno Penzias

source of above,

[![](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/3X/2/c/2c364e509a63f7f182f90f28430cd56ff55f038e.jpeg "The Fine-Tuning of the Universe") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE76nwimuT0)

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**Author:** ![Michael\_Okoko](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michael_okoko/32/13148_2.png) [@Michael\_Okoko](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michael_Okoko)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 10:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/18 "2022-11-23T22:32:10Z")

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So a bunch of quotes is evidence for a fine-tuned universe? You need try harder.

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**Author:** ![CrisprCAS9](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/crisprcas9/32/9145_2.png) [@CrisprCAS9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/CrisprCAS9)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 10:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/19 "2022-11-23T22:33:48Z")

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> [@Sam](#):
>
> does the fine-tuning of the universe for life

The universe is not fine-tuned for life.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-argument-clinic/15561/20 "2022-11-23T22:54:18Z")

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> [@Sam](#):
>
> > [@Mercer](#):
> >
> > According to you (not anyone else)
> 
> You’ve polled everyone?

No. Why? You were stating it as a simple fact. What evidence did you use to come to that conclusion?

> [@Sam](#):
>
> > [@Mercer](#):
> >
> > Citing rhetoric
> 
> Does one “cite” rhetoric?

That’s all you’ve cited. Not a speck of evidence. That’s what I meant by asking you and no one else. Is that not clear?

> [@Sam](#):
>
> Sir Martin Rees  
> “The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life.”

You’re not reading what you’re citing. “Seem” is not synonymous with “is.”

> [@Sam](#):
>
> Stephen Hawking  
> “If anyone claims not to be surprised by the special features the universe has, he is hiding his head in the sand. These special features are surprising and unlikely.”

None of those things suggest that any entity has tuned them.

> [@Sam](#):
>
> source of above,

So you’ve only witnessed rhetoric, yet you stated fine-tuning as a fact. Isn’t that bearing false witness?

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