# The authors of the Proximal Origin paper didn’t speak their mind

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Science, Society\
**Created:** [July 28, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242 "2023-07-28T15:25:16Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 17\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 3:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/1 "2023-07-28T15:25:17Z")

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What are to be the consequences of this debacle on public trust for scientific institutions?

> **[Open Letter To Nature Medicine - Biosafety Now](https://biosafetynow.org/open-letter-to-nature-medicine/)**

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/2 "2023-07-28T18:22:11Z")

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Unfortunately, your link doesn’t present any evidence. What are they talking about?

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/4 "2023-07-28T18:54:11Z")

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Just to pick an example, this shows that these scientists were developing their views over time. This really isn’t reflected in that attack article:

 ![Becoming more convinced of natural origin](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/3X/3/e/3eb95d78ad705bbb6f12ef1e295e1e316f886b80.png)

Edit: This post should come after my other one below. Moderators approved in the wrong chronological order.

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**Author:** ![Roy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/roy/32/3799_2.png) [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)\
**Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/5 "2023-07-28T18:54:29Z")

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Consequence? Nothing.

People who trust scientific processes and results will continue to do so. People who reject science will continue to do so. Ignorant yahoos who overstate unevidenced conspiracy theories about subjects they don’t understand will continue to do so.

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**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/6 "2023-07-28T18:54:43Z")

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I am surprised that you are unaware of this affair. Here is a link with more stuff

> **[Top Scientists Misled Congress About Covid Origins, Newly Released Emails And...](https://public.substack.com/p/top-scientists-misled-congress-about)**
>
> Top advisor to Anthony Fauci still thought a lab leak was possible in April 2020, one month after claiming publicly that it wasn’t

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/7 "2023-07-28T18:55:32Z")

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Apparently you have to follow the links in the references, which will send you to some pdf files with screenshots of conversations the authors of the nature paper had, leading up to it’s publication. They appear to be going through considerable periods of back-and-forth discussions concerning what they think is plausible or not, concerning SARS-Cov2 origins.

I’ve read about 20% of the first pdf from the Slack discussion (it’s quite long) and I would agree the sentiments they express in private appear to not be completely consistent with what they later appear to write in their paper. That said, I also find they express some nuances about their state of mind that are not being well represented in those articles that accuse them of scientific misconduct.

Rather, it really looks to me like they are very uncertain about a lot of the facts about Coronaviruses, how it would/could have evolved prior to the pandemic, and they’re sort of learning a lot of stuff as the discussion progresses.

It really reads largely like they don’t want to be out there giving ammunition to conspiracy theories (or worse, gain reputations as crackpots) only later to be made to look like fools if, (for example) a pangolin coronavirus is found that has a furin cleavage site.

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/8 "2023-07-28T20:59:28Z")

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This is extremely misleading (from [one of the articles](https://public.substack.com/p/covid-origins-scientist-denounces) purporting to show scientists were contradicting their private conversations with their paper):

> - **Scientists thought lab leak was possible months after saying otherwise**
> 
> The messages reveal that Andersen still suspected that a lab leak was possible in mid-April, a full month after Nature Medicine officially published “Proximal Origin,” and two months after the authors published a preprint. “I’m still not fully convinced that no culture was involved,” Andersen wrote to his co-authors on April 16. “We also can’t fully rule out engineering (for basic research).” As we noted on Tuesday, if Andersen wasn’t convinced that no culturing was possible, why did he rule out “any type of laboratory-based scenario” in his paper?

Possible/impossible =/= plausible/implausible.

This “mistake” is constantly made in the articles that attack the authors of the nature paper.

Their nature paper says they don’t consider a lab-leak to be _plausible_, but it doesn’t “rule out” the lab-leak scenario as that sentence claims. None of the authors have ever claimed that a lab-leak scenario is or ever was impossible or that it had been “ruled out”.

This is what the nature paper actually says(my bold):

> The genomic features described here may explain in part the infectiousness and transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 in humans. Although the evidence shows that SARS-CoV-2 is not a purposefully manipulated virus, **it is currently impossible to prove or disprove the other theories of its origin described here.** However, since we observed all notable SARS-CoV-2 features, including the optimized RBD and polybasic cleavage site, in related coronaviruses in nature, we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is **plausible.**

That is just _crap_ journalism. Misleading political spin that mischaracterizes what the authors of the paper are saying.

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**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [July 28, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/9 "2023-07-28T20:59:38Z")

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> [@Roy](#):
>
> People who trust scientific processes and results will continue to do so

My question was not about trust in the scientific processes but trust in the scientific institutions. Try again

> [@Roy](#):
>
> People who reject science will continue to do so

Do you think the scientists that wrote the open letter to Nature Medecine reject science?

> [@Roy](#):
>
> Ignorant yahoos who overstate unevidenced conspiracy theories about subjects they don’t understand will continue to do so.

Can you please specify which conspiracy theories you are referring to?

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/10 "2023-07-29T00:33:50Z")

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> [@Giltil](#):
>
> > [@Roy](#):
> >
> > People who reject science will continue to do so
> 
> Do you think the scientists that wrote the open letter to Nature Medecine reject science?

In this case, yes. They are following their egos.

> [@Giltil](#):
>
> > [@Roy](#):
> >
> > Ignorant yahoos who overstate unevidenced conspiracy theories about subjects they don’t understand will continue to do so.
> 
> Can you please specify which conspiracy theories you are referring to?

I’m guessing that Roy is referring to ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, your hero Didier Raoult (backed up by utterly unethical research practices), and a bunch of antivax silliness.

What’s your opinion of Andrew Wakefield, Gil?

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**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 8:04am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/11 "2023-07-29T08:04:59Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> What’s your opinion of Andrew Wakefield, Gil?

Don’t know him

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 8:09am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/12 "2023-07-29T08:09:13Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> I’m guessing that Roy is referring to ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, your hero Didier Raoult (backed up by utterly unethical research practices), and a bunch of antivax silliness

Roy was referring to people that don’t understand their subject. Not sure it can be said that Raoult doesn’t understand his subject, can it?

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [July 29, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/13 "2023-07-29T14:54:24Z")

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> [@Giltil](#):
>
> Don’t know him

Well, then, it’s about time you were introduced:

[Andrew Wakefield - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield)

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 2:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/14 "2023-07-30T14:53:31Z")

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> [@Giltil](#):
>
> Roy was referring to people that don’t understand their subject. Not sure it can be said that Raoult doesn’t understand his subject, can it?

That would be the most charitable explanation for his lack of ethics. At best, he appears to be unaware that a scientist’s duty is to try to DISprove his hypothesis, not to prove it by taking shortcuts and faking data.

Do you think his behavior was just plain evil, then?

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**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/15 "2023-07-30T16:24:56Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> Do you think his behavior was just plain evil, then?

No, not at all. I think that most of the accusations made against him are at best unfounded and at worst fakes. Meanwhile, he has done his best to treat his many patients, successfully IMO.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [July 30, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/16 "2023-07-30T17:30:11Z")

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> [@Giltil](#):
>
> > [@Mercer](#):
> >
> > Do you think his behavior was just plain evil, then?
> 
> No, not at all. I think that most of the accusations made against him are at best unfounded and at worst fakes.

I don’t believe you’ve even looked. If I’m wrong, which ones specifically and which evidence specifically?

> [@Giltil](#):
>
> Meanwhile, he has done his best to treat his many patients, successfully IMO.

I don’t see any evidence to support your opinion.

Do you really think that a study on only 24 patients, regardless of all of the other issues, should be taken as significant?

> **[Didier Raoult : 30 years of unregulated experiments on human](https://www.lepoint.fr/sante/didier-raoult-30-years-of-unregulated-experiments-on-human-22-06-2023-2525726_40.php#11)**
>
> INVESTIGATION. Didier Raoult and some of his collaborators probably began their unauthorized experiments in 1993 on homeless people, who are a particularly vulnerable group.

> **[A Data Sleuth Challenged A Powerful COVID Scientist. Then He Came After Her.](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/elisabeth-bik-didier-raoult-hydroxychloroquine-study)**
>
> Elisabeth Bik calls out bad science for a living. A feud with one of the world’s loudest hydroxychloroquine crusaders shows that it can carry a high price.

> **[IHU de Didier Raoult : l'ANSM saisit la justice et engage des poursuites...](https://www.lexpress.fr/sciences-sante/sciences/ihu-de-didier-raoult-l-ansm-saisit-la-justice-et-engage-des-poursuites_2172505.html)**
>
> L'Agence nationale de sécurité du médicament vient de rendre le rapport final de son inspection visant l'institut marseillais. Il est accablant pour Didier Raoult.

Why isn’t he suing all of these people and news organizations for libel, then?

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**Author:** ![evograd](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/evograd/32/1233_2.png) [@evograd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/evograd)\
**Post date:** [August 2, 2023, 10:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/17 "2023-08-02T22:34:31Z")

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On Twitter I saw this graphic circulating a little (promoted by the likes of Richard Ebright) - a list of quotes from the authors of the PO paper:

 ![F1p1WNpWIAAo6Co](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/3X/c/8/c8a5b9e258755dce9e20e05b2defad8ad3cce63c.jpeg)

Of course, it’s touted as the smoking gun that the authors committed fraud:

 ![Screenshot 2023-08-03 at 00.20.55](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/3X/3/5/3594fc91070af369692ed07a86163302cc7142ed.png)

I decided to track down all the quotes (I could for all but one of them), and read the 140-page PDF of the slack archive. As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, the vast majority of the quotes are from days or weeks before the authors submitted the PO paper to Nature Medicine:

 ![Proximal origins dates](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/3X/5/6/56a2ba9be5ddd330419fe48a4b63cd51fe3ff317.jpeg)

I highly recommend everyone read through the Slack archive (link to download the PDF [here](https://t.co/wqRv4Z7NWA)), because it shows the authors grappling with new data in real time and changing their minds accordingly. This includes several of them starting off leaning towards various lab leak scenarios and then later changing their minds.

I don’t see how it’s possible for anyone acting in good faith to suggest that the Slack archive shows the authors hatching a sinister plot to misrepresent their own views and mislead the public.

Ian Lipkin is the only author who seems to have more recently changed his mind to be more open to some kind of lab escape theory (see the 2023 quotes) after hearing that some bat coronavirus work was performed at BSL-2 at the WIV. However, he still maintains there is no positive evidence in favour of this, he basically seems to just be spooked by the possibility of an accidental release.

Of course, regardless of the dates, several of the quotes are taken completely out of context, like the one from Eddie Holmes about China wanting to “rewrite what happened” - in the same post Eddie makes it clear that he thinks the Chinese government doesn’t want any investigation of origins because even in a natural scenario they come out looking bad (referring to the wet markets).

> Eddie Holmes 18:38 April 17th  
> “China are definitely trying to rewrite what happened, but Im pretty certain that’s because they don’t what anyone to think about the origin in any context rather than trying  
> to suppress the lab escape theory. They’ve been trying to suppress this from day 1 in December because the word ‘SARS’ is just so toxic to the regime.”

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**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/peacefulscience/original/2X/6/6b7bf72453a5c60b0919b6b89a27dc18bc52382c.png) [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2023, 10:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-authors-of-the-proximal-origin-paper-didn-t-speak-their-mind/16242/18 "2023-08-09T22:34:58Z")

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