# The Current Status of Ewert's Dependency Graph of Life

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Tags:** Science, Design\
**Created:** [January 3, 2019, 10:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735 "2019-01-03T22:28:19Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/1 "2019-01-03T22:28:19Z")

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I’ll wait a bit and see what develops out of Winston Ewert’s work, et al., when it is expanded, and I expect more developments in information and the time required, since biocomplexity and biodiversity are not shrinking, nor are the numbers of the discoveries in molecular and cellular biology.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:29pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/2 "2019-01-03T22:29:00Z")

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> [@Alternatives to Modern Evolutionary Theory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/alternatives-to-modern-evolutionary-theory/3606/132):
>
> I’ll wait a bit and see what develops out of Winston Ewert’s work

I’ll make a prediction: noting will develop.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/3 "2019-01-03T22:32:02Z")

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> [@Alternatives to Modern Evolutionary Theory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/alternatives-to-modern-evolutionary-theory/3606/133):
>
> I’ll make a prediction: noting will develop.

I’ll make a note of that. 🙂 I just proved you right.

I’ll make a prediction, too. Science will be discovered to not have all the answers. Oh wait. We already know that. 🙂

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/4 "2019-01-03T22:34:30Z")

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> [@Alternatives to Modern Evolutionary Theory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/alternatives-to-modern-evolutionary-theory/3606/134):
>
> We already know that.

Well of course science doesn’t have all the answers. However, it’s the only good way we know of to get answers, and it does produce more answers as time passes. What else would you propose that is also capable of getting answers? (And there must be a way of assessing whether the answers are good ones too.)

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/5 "2019-01-03T22:36:07Z")

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> [@Alternatives to Modern Evolutionary Theory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/alternatives-to-modern-evolutionary-theory/3606/132):
>
> I’ll wait a bit and see what develops out of Winston Ewert’s work, et al., when it is expanded, and I expect more developments in information and the time required, since biocomplexity and biodiversity are not shrinking, nor are the numbers of the discoveries in molecular and cellular biology.

The problem with Ewert’s work is that it ignores the sequence data. He simply looked at the distribution of proteins with a given function, but he wasn’t able to explain why the sequences of those genes produced a nested hierarchy. On top of that, Ewert’s claims relied heavily on the accuracy and thoroughness of gene annotation which really can’t be relied on.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/6 "2019-01-03T22:37:28Z")

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> [@Alternatives to Modern Evolutionary Theory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/alternatives-to-modern-evolutionary-theory/3606/136):
>
> The problem with Ewert’s work is that it ignores the sequence data. He simply looked at the distribution of proteins with a given function, but he wasn’t able to explain why the sequences of those genes produced a nested hierarchy. On top of that, Ewert’s claims relied heavily on the accuracy and thoroughness of gene annotation which really can’t be relied on.

That is entirely correct. @DaleCutler, this is exactly what @Winston_Ewert agreed with when he was here. Did you read our exchange on this? ([Winston Ewert: The Dependency Graph of Life](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/winston-ewert-the-dependency-graph-of-life/728)). We are still waiting for him to do the next set of analysis and get back to us. I think it will take him some time.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/7 "2019-01-03T22:37:44Z")

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> [@Alternatives to Modern Evolutionary Theory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/alternatives-to-modern-evolutionary-theory/3606/134):
>
> I’ll make a prediction, too. Science will be discovered to not have all the answers. Oh wait. We already know that. 🙂

That’s a strength, not a weakness.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/8 "2019-01-03T22:38:30Z")

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> [@Alternatives to Modern Evolutionary Theory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/alternatives-to-modern-evolutionary-theory/3606/138):
>
> > I’ll make a prediction, too. Science will be discovered to not have all the answers. Oh wait. We already know that. 🙂
> 
> That’s a strength, not a weakness.

@DaleCutler, we already know that Science does not have all the answers. Who thinks differently on this?

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/9 "2019-01-03T22:43:42Z")

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Let me suggest another weakness of Ewert’s scheme: his “modules” are not functional units but are purely ad hoc sets of genes that have the same taxonomic distribution, and even that depends on his tiny taxonomic sample.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/10 "2019-01-03T22:44:23Z")

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> [@Alternatives to Modern Evolutionary Theory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/alternatives-to-modern-evolutionary-theory/3606/140):
>
> Let me suggest another weakness of Ewert’s scheme: his “modules” are not functional units but are purely ad hoc sets of genes that have the same taxonomic distribution, and even that depends on his tiny taxonomic sample.

That came up already. Though we don’t know for sure. I suggested that he could build support by showing they were functional modules. He had not yet looked into this.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2019, 11:39pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/11 "2019-01-03T23:39:56Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> @DaleCutler, we already know that Science does not have all the answers. Who thinks differently on this?

Those that think they know that there is no God? …and base it on science.

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**Author:** ![T.j\_Runyon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t.j_runyon/32/9662_2.png) [@T.j\_Runyon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T.j_Runyon)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 12:41am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/12 "2019-01-04T00:41:10Z")

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I was a longtime atheist and I never thought science had all the answers. None of the top atheist scholars adhere to scientism

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:07am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/13 "2019-01-04T01:07:47Z")

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> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> > @DaleCutler, we already know that Science does not have all the answers. Who thinks differently on this?
> 
> Those that think they know that there is no God?

Not if they are scientists. Most scientists are acutely aware of the limits of science.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/14 "2019-01-04T01:11:18Z")

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Right now, this is a parallel conversation to [Why Christianity is the Worldview that Best Supports Science](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/why-christianity-is-the-worldview-that-best-supports-science/3732/11), in many ways.

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**Author:** ![Mercer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Mercer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mercer)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/15 "2019-01-04T01:58:42Z")

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> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> > @DaleCutler, we already know that Science does not have all the answers. Who thinks differently on this?
> 
> Those that think they know that there is no God? …and base it on science.

There you go again…

> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> Right now, this is a parallel conversation to [Why Christianity is the Worldview that Best Supports Science](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/why-christianity-is-the-worldview-that-best-supports-science/3732/11), in many ways.

Well, yes, in that it also involves your attempts to falsely attribute beliefs and positions to others.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/16 "2019-01-04T02:15:22Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> There you go again…
> 
> ![](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/40/746_1.png) DaleCutler:
> 
> > Right now, this is a parallel conversation to [Why Christianity is the Worldview that Best Supports Science](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/why-christianity-is-the-worldview-that-best-supports-science/3732/11), in many ways.
> 
> Well, yes, in that it also involves your attempts to falsely attribute beliefs and positions to others.

Wrong and a false accusation and a pretence at omniscience. I’ve been in coversations with antitheist scientists that demand exactly that, because “nature is all there is.”

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/17 "2019-01-04T02:20:42Z")

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> [@Mercer](#):
>
> There you go again…

That sounds like a less than peaceful insult to me.

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**Author:** ![DaleCutler](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dalecutler/32/746_2.png) [@DaleCutler](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/DaleCutler)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:22am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/18 "2019-01-04T02:22:49Z")

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> [@T.j\_Runyon](#):
>
> None of the top atheist scholars adhere to scientism

Not all scientists are top atheist scholars, though, thus leaving _a lot_ that do.

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:25am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/19 "2019-01-04T02:25:33Z")

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> [@DaleCutler](#):
>
> Not all scientists are top atheist scholars, though, thus leaving _a lot_ that do.

There are a lot of excellent evolutionary scientists doing great work who are Christians. Francis Collins comes to mind as does Dr. Swamidass. Why bash them?

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735/20 "2019-01-04T02:27:16Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> I suggested that he could build support by showing they were functional modules.

This seems very unlikely on its face. The fact that he talks about them as if they were, prior to any investigation, is a count against him.

[Next page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-current-status-of-ewerts-dependency-graph-of-life/3735.md?page=2)