Neither the French Revolution or the last century’s world wars ushered in bloody conflict or oppression.
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The outcome of the world wars was certainly a determining factor, though. Were either to have ended differently, the world would, arguably, be an utterly different place than we experience now.
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The French Revolution brought massive conflict and bloodshed.
If you are saying that the French Revolution was not followed by a resulting long era of conflict and oppression, I would agree. But I don’t think anybody on this thread has made that claim, although it is possible that I missed such a post.
A direct consequence of the Enlightenment is climate change? Direct? How so?
Funnily enough, there’s a mild attempt at revolution currently in France. The Gilets Jaunes Movement. There has been one (accidental) death and some injuries but very much less bloody than 1789.
True, but also true of any war to the extent of its scope.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough! It was late at night for me 
I meant that the French Revolution wasn’t the first time the world saw bloody oppression, and the world wars weren’t the first bloody wars.
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Patrick was claiming that the industrial revolution, technological growth etc in the last century is a result of the enlightenment… if so, climate change will be a direct consequence.
Of course, the entire basic Calum of tech growth to enlightenment can be challenged.
I think you missed the point. World war 2 is interesting because there were three major ideologies involved all of which owed a debt to the “enlightenment” (among other influencers).
- Hitlers Fascism
- Communism
- Capitalist democracy.
So, if Hitler had won the war, irrespective of how different the world would look like… The enlightenment would have made a contribution (i.e if Mr Pinkers Analysis is correct)
Same thing with the communists.
I guess then, that God as creator of the Universe, carries the can for all its wrongs.
Depends on what kind of God you envision and whether or not creatures have free will.
As to the enlightenment, i see it as a movement that is just a part of many things that influenced the world.
I’m not good with hypotheticals. Envisioning God is something I cannot do. I think it’s congenital!
As to the enlightenment, i see it as a movement that is just a part of many things that influenced the world
People! It’s people that are the problem. 
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I don’t think this is fair. To try to isolate this, let’s look just at “The West,” meaning Western Europe and North America. Even if you attribute all of the violence of the French Revolution on the Enlightenment, was this really “ugly” and “darkness” compared to what it was fighting against? The feudal system of monarchs and Lord was tyrannical, unjust, and horrifically violent. It kept the vast majority of citizens in extreme poverty, without any real rights of expression, property, or access to self-improvement. “Justice” was almost purely arbitrary and capricious. Most people were essentially indentured servants with no way to improve their station through talent or hard work, while a tiny few enjoyed nearly unlimited power and luxury (by the standards of the day). The “Dark Ages” lasted over a thousand years and inflicted untold suffering on hundreds of millions while a few Lord and Kings justified their opulence and indifference with claims of divine right, etc. (And The Church fully supported them in that. Remember, the Reformation was a key part of the Enlightenment.) Yes the French Revolution was a violent upheaval, but the number of people that were actually killed is TINY compared to the number that died due to feudal cruelty and indifference. Revolutions are violent by necessity. Tyranny doesn’t give up its power any other way, nor does it respond to polite requests. Nostalgia for the age when religion dominated social and state affairs romanticizes a daily hellscape for most people that lived it.
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And the same with the capitalist democracies. Indeed, I don’t see the importance. People have been having wars since long before for all kinds of reasons and ideologies. The common point is the wars. The particular ideologies involved seem like a side issue. I would agree with Mr Pinker that things are great now, but I don’t know how optimistic he is about the future. It seems to me there are good reasons to doubt how sunny things are going to be, and in a pretty short time frame. That being said, I would say science and enlightenment thought have contributed to making the world a better place. I don’t think either is the panacea that has solved or will solve all of our problems either. I’m not sure that there are better options though.
What is unfair about asking a question? It is an honest question.
I’m not at all nostalgic for a religion dominated society, and am in fact arguing for a secular society.
As I recall, many Enlightenment thinkers were disillusioned by the French Revolution. I’m just wondering how the “neo-Enlightenment” is working through that part history. Thank you though for you post, as this does give me some understanding
I see where you were coming from here. I wonder if there could been a way to progress that could have avoided the violent upheaval altogether. I’d hope so, because still need major progress in society, and it would be a dark lesson from history if this means we should expect violent upheaval again.
I know, but it’s based on a premise that I don’t think we agree on, that the first enlightenment was a prelude to darkness. I’d say it was a prelude FROM darkness, mostly living up to its name, conceding there were casualties, both literally and figuratively.
At the time, I doubt it. Those monopolizing power basically never yield it properly. The idea of the enlightenment was to spread power out so much that no one COULD monopolize it again. I think the key to a new enlightenment is, as before, to empower the powerless and place a strong a check as possible on all those with power.
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Things were said to be great many times in history. The romans marveled for how much there was peace, security, prosperity(relative) for a time there in the roman empire. someone making the famous quote 'was there ever any wars". 9 i can’t remember who but remember the quote)
Things have been better in north america for centuries now.
these are the best of times and the worst of times. there is more kindness, love, now but there is more evil , injustice in many ways.
Like people , society’s are just a angry reaction away from destruction.
WE are wealthier and have better stuff and better health provision.
The odd thing is that it was the left wing that always strived to teach how bad things were in order to take control. The liberal democrat, the democratic party, is based on complaints from those who want something from others. Since the civil war.
I guess it suits the left wing to now say ITS OKAY. HMMMM.Suspicious eh.
Well, that was the idea of the French Revolution, maybe the Russian revolution, too. But I think Orwell had it about right with Animal Farm.
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I can agree with this.
Possibly. It is worth exploring. I honestly asked the quesiton to understand better, not to make an attack or accusation.
I"m not sure how well the “Dark Ages” mythology holds up. Have you read much from History for Atheistsyet? For example, this article on the Library of Alexandria is helpful…
Not all progress it forward.
We can’t look at historical contingency and say it was good or bad. IT HAPPENED, for better or worse. Some bad thing fell out of the enlightenment, but what is the alternative to the enlightenment? Would we be better off returning to values of Pre-Enlightenment?? That might make interesting speculation, but without a time machine that’s all it can be.