# The Mustard Seed is Smallest of Seeds

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [October 12, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213 "2018-10-12T02:06:21Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/1 "2018-10-12T02:06:21Z")

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> [@Origin of Mitochondrial DNA Differences](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/origin-of-mitochondrial-dna-differences/2208/8):
>
> “The mustard seed is the smallest seed on earth” (Mark 4:31) is a statement with similar contextual bounds. Jesus is correct, in his context. Broadening the context, however, we find that orchid seeds are smaller, but Jesus is not in error.

Speechless.

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**Author:** ![Timothy\_Horton](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/timothy_horton/32/9410_2.png) [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/2 "2018-10-12T02:12:49Z")

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> [@Origin of Mitochondrial DNA Differences](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/origin-of-mitochondrial-dna-differences/2208/18):
>
> > “The mustard seed is the smallest seed on earth” (Mark 4:31) is a statement with similar contextual bounds. Jesus is correct, in his context. Broadening the context, however, we find that orchid seeds are smaller, but Jesus is not in error.
> 
> Speechless.

The contortions some YECs go through to make their interpretations of Scripture fit reality would put Gumby to shame.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:20am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/3 "2018-10-12T04:20:17Z")

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> [@Origin of Mitochondrial DNA Differences](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/origin-of-mitochondrial-dna-differences/2208/19):
>
> The contortions some YECs go through to make their interpretations of Scripture fit reality would put Gumby to shame.

That wasn’t a creationist.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/4 "2018-10-12T04:25:08Z")

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> [@Origin of Mitochondrial DNA Differences](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/origin-of-mitochondrial-dna-differences/2208/20):
>
> > The contortions some YECs go through to make their interpretations of Scripture fit reality would put Gumby to shame.
> 
> That wasn’t a creationist.

Yup, that was me. It is just a basic feature of language. Everything has context. Even in a literal interpretation the most important three rules are context, context, context. Just to demonstrate I’m not idiosyncratic in this, @deuteroKJ or @jongarvey or @Eddie or anyone else with appropriate expertise, can you give your thoughts on my reading. is it valid?

> Jesus says: “The mustard seed is the smallest seed on earth” (Mark 4:31). Jesus is correct, in his context. Broadening the context, however, we find that orchid seeds are smaller, but Jesus is not in scientific error because he is not making a global claim.

Thanks.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:33am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/5 "2018-10-12T04:33:40Z")

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> [@Origin of Mitochondrial DNA Differences](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/origin-of-mitochondrial-dna-differences/2208/21):
>
> It is just a basic feature of language.

Not something I would like to argue about with you. I’ll just say that in my opinion your argument would be convincing only to someone who is already convinced that both the bible and Jesus must be considered infallible.

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**Author:** ![deuteroKJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@deuteroKJ](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/deuteroKJ)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 5:02am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/6 "2018-10-12T05:02:57Z")

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> [@Origin of Mitochondrial DNA Differences](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/origin-of-mitochondrial-dna-differences/2208/21):
>
> > That wasn’t a creationist.
> 
> Yup, that was me. It is just a basic feature of language. Everything has context. Even in a literal interpretation the most important three rules are context, context, context. Just demonstrate I’m not idiosyncratic in this, @deuteroKJ or @jongarvey or @Eddie or anyone else with appropriate expertise, can you give your thoughts on my reading. is it valid?
> 
> > Jesus says: “The mustard seed is the smallest seed on earth” (Mark 4:31). Jesus is correct, in his context. Broadening the context, however, we find that orchid seeds are smaller, but Jesus is not in scientific error because he is not making a global claim.

Jesus’ rhetoric easily fits with common/popular understanding in his own context. In this understanding, the “common man” would’ve assumed the mustard seed as the smallest (or maybe there was a well-known idiom saying the same). Whether Jesus believed this “public fact” himself or was speaking the common knowledge (despite knowing better) is irrelevant in terms of the “truthfulness” of his statement.

If I said pi was 3.14 would I be wrong? Or that the earth is a sphere? Or that the earth revolves around a stationary sun? Of course, none of these statements are technically correct from a precise, scientific viewpoint…but they are still “true” given most contexts in which I’d make such claims.

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**Author:** ![dga471](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dga471/32/5233_2.png) [@dga471](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/dga471)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 5:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/7 "2018-10-12T05:15:51Z")

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> [@Origin of Mitochondrial DNA Differences](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/origin-of-mitochondrial-dna-differences/2208/23):
>
> If I said pi was 3.14 would I be wrong? Or that the earth is a sphere? Or that the earth revolves around a stationary sun? Of course, none of these statements are technically correct from a precise, scientific viewpoint…but they are still “true” given most contexts in which I’d make such claims.

Of course, even in physics, few statements are completely true. Everything is an approximation at some level.

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**Author:** ![deuteroKJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@deuteroKJ](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/deuteroKJ)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 5:19am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/8 "2018-10-12T05:19:27Z")

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> [@Origin of Mitochondrial DNA Differences](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/origin-of-mitochondrial-dna-differences/2208/24):
>
> even in physics

My PhD may be in Old Testament Theology, but my undergrad was physics & math. I guess God knew what he was doing by putting me on this crazy path 🙂 I remember the shock of finding out in college that much that I learned in high school physics was technically not true.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 5:36am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/9 "2018-10-12T05:36:41Z")

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> [@Origin of Mitochondrial DNA Differences](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/origin-of-mitochondrial-dna-differences/2208/22):
>
> > It is just a basic feature of language.
> 
> Not something I would like to argue about with you. I’ll just say that in my opinion your argument would be convincing only to someone who is already convinced that both the bible and Jesus must be considered infallible.

This is just a basic fact of linguistics. Though I do appreciate you are not arguing with me, and we can just leave it.

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**Author:** ![jongarvey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jongarvey/32/5_2.png) [@jongarvey](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jongarvey)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 7:24am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/10 "2018-10-12T07:24:09Z")

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Surely this is an example of category confusion on the part of John and Timothy.

If I use an illustration from my surroundings, I am simply _not_ making an absolute scientific statement, and neither was Jesus. I doubt that anybody in that conversation was quoting some naturalist on the smallest seed in nature: there was certainly some context, such as the mustard being the smallest seed commonly available for sowing or, as Ken says, some proverbial idiom.

If I were to use PT Barnum’s General Tom Thumb and Angus McAskill to show, for example, that God cares for the greatest and the smallest, it would be foolish for somone to dig out more extreme examples. Jesus was not teaching about mustard seeds, but about kingdoms _illustrated_ by mustard seeds.

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**Author:** ![jongarvey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jongarvey/32/5_2.png) [@jongarvey](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jongarvey)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 7:36am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/11 "2018-10-12T07:36:36Z")

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> [@deuteroKJ](#):
>
> Or that the earth is a sphere?

Even the Guardian headline was not “in error” when it said “Plastic now pollutes every corner of Earth.” Even they don’t think the earth is square.

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**Author:** ![Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mung](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mung)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 11:42am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/12 "2018-10-12T11:42:49Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Speechless.

Good!

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**Author:** ![Mark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Mark](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/13 "2018-10-12T13:29:45Z")

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If Jesus was truly human, why would this statement have to be “correct in its context”? If he truly grew in wisdom and knowledge, wouldn’t this mean that he was ignorant about certain things? Big bang cosmology, evolution, relativity, the conclusions of historical criticism regarding the authorship of the old testament books? That is a science afterall. The MEANING of those texts is bound up in Christ anyway, not historical-critical conclusions or archeology or scientific study.

What if his divinity was manifest with his statements related to his kerygma? Basically the proclamation of the gospel and its implications (which would include ethics- i.e. a theology of marriage would imply certain sexual acts would miss the mark).

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**Author:** ![Mark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Mark](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 1:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/14 "2018-10-12T13:30:29Z")

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IN HIS HUMANITY, he would be ignorant of certain things. I need to specify that.

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**Author:** ![Mark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Mark](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 1:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/15 "2018-10-12T13:32:37Z")

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Could Jesus have measured incorrectly as a carpenter or accidentally hit his thumb with a hammer?

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**Author:** ![Argon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/argon/32/3896_2.png) [@Argon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Argon)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 1:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/16 "2018-10-12T13:38:53Z")

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A deeper question would be whether Jesus really could’ve refrained from committing a sin after striking his thumb with a hammer or cutting a mismeasured plank. 'Cause being fully human, that’s just what we do. I’m just saying… 😜

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**Author:** ![Mark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Mark](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/17 "2018-10-12T14:03:15Z")

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Haha.

Yes but to give a real answer, to be TRULY human is NOT TO SIN! And Christ is the only TRULY HUMAN BEING! So yes! He could have refrained from an outburst of innapropriate anger!

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/18 "2018-10-12T14:03:38Z")

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So we now have at least five different justifications for Jesus’s statement:

1. Smaller seeds had not yet evolved.
2. When he said “the earth” he was referring to the immediate area only.
3. He was not being technical.
4. He was using a figure of speech.
5. He was human and capable of error.

Of these, I think we can all agree that 1 is just ridiculous. So far nobody but Joshua has supported 2, which is less ridiculous but, I think, still forced. No objection to the rest.

I will add 6. Why would anyone argue over such a trivial matter?

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**Author:** ![Mark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Mark](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/19 "2018-10-12T14:05:28Z")

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Because there are a lot of interesting implications!

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-mustard-seed-is-smallest-of-seeds/2213/20 "2018-10-12T14:08:46Z")

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> [@Mark](#):
>
> Because there are a lot of interesting implications!

Doubtful. The only reason anyone brought it up is that somebody attacked the veracity of the bible based on it.

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