# The New Frontier of Intelligent Design, Coming in August
**URL:** https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678
**Category:** Side Conversation
**Tags:** Design
**Created:** [April 5, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678 "2019-04-05T21:06:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/1 "2019-04-05T21:06:14Z")
ENV has published a bit of press for Stephen Meyer’s upcoming book:
> [@](#):
>
> Meyer, a philosopher of science, talks about the move to the next frontier in the argument for intelligent design. His forthcoming book, which is going to be huge, is The Return of the God Hypothesis.
That sounded interesting, and it is even available for pre-purchase over at Amazon. I was somewhat excited to see if the ID community has something new coming out, but alas, it is more of the same. This is from the sales copy at Amazon:
> [@](#):
>
> Meyer uses three scientific points to refute popular arguments put forward by the “New Atheists” against the existence of God:
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> 1. The evidence from cosmology showing that the material universe had a beginning.
> 2. The evidence from physics showing that, from the beginning, the universe was been “finely tuned” to allow for the possibility of life.
> 3. The evidence from biology showing that since the universe came into being, large amounts of genetic information present in DNA must have arisen to make life possible.
Really? These arguments have been around forever. How can the Discovery Institute advertise this as the “new frontier”?
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### Author:  [@Timothy\_Horton](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Timothy_Horton)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/2 "2019-04-05T21:20:18Z")
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> Really? These arguments have been around forever. How can the Discovery Institute advertise this as the “new frontier”?
As long as there is easy money to be made from the IDCer rank and file the DI will keep repackaging the same old bull.
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> His forthcoming book, which is going to be huge, is The Return of the God Hypothesis.
But ID isn’t about religion, no siree bob. 🙂
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### Author:  [@T.j\_Runyon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T.j_Runyon)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/3 "2019-04-05T21:41:41Z")
And 2 and 3 are in tension with one another 🤦🏻♂️
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/4 "2019-04-05T21:49:53Z")
> [@T.j\_Runyon](#):
>
> And 2 and 3 are in tension with one another
I have noticed that as well. If the universe is fine tuned for life, then why all of the arguments against abiogenesis? Also, couldn’t God fine tune the universe so that evolution produces genetic information? If the new ID position is that abiogenesis and evolution occur spontaneously and are responsible for the biology we see, then they have ceded a lot of the territory they once claimed.
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### Author:  [@Argon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Argon)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/5 "2019-04-05T22:20:21Z")
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> I have noticed that as well. If the universe is fine tuned for life, then why all of the arguments against abiogenesis?
It’s certainly not a problem in Michael Denton’s scheme of things. Denton argues that universe was designed at its origin specifically to give rise to life.
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### Author:  [@T.j\_Runyon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T.j_Runyon)
#### Post date: [April 5, 2019, 11:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/6 "2019-04-05T23:21:50Z")
This is a good paper that details the problem Meyer faces
[http://tedposton.org/Documents/usersguide.pdf](http://tedposton.org/Documents/usersguide.pdf)
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### Author:  [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/7 "2019-04-07T01:34:53Z")
> [@Argon](#):
>
> Denton argues that universe was designed at its origin specifically to give rise to life.
@argon,
Behe is videoed saying the same thing!
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### Author:  [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/8 "2019-04-07T15:07:53Z")
> [@Timothy\_Horton](#):
>
> > His forthcoming book, which is going to be huge, is The Return of the God Hypothesis.
>
> But ID isn’t about religion, no siree bob. 🙂
Maybe that is the new part? Perhaps the are giving up on the anonymous designer strategy?
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### Author:  [@evograd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/evograd)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2019, 4:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/9 "2019-04-07T16:25:17Z")
> [@Argon](#):
>
> Denton argues that universe was designed at its origin specifically to give rise to life.
Which puts the DI in an interesting dilemma when they laud all the “papers that support intelligent design” - the list includes papers arguing that natural abiogenesis is impossible given current physics, chemistry, etc and requires a designer, as well as papers from Denton saying that the fact that the current laws of physics, chemistry etc make abiogenesis so easy that the laws themselves must have been designed!
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### Author:  [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2019, 3:38am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/10 "2019-04-08T03:38:29Z")
Actually I’m really curious now. If they give up on the anonymous designer, that would be new and a really good move for them. No one ever bought that gambit, but they have kept up the ruse for 25 years. It is like watching Santa Claus every year, but every one even the kids knows it’s just uncle Bob in a beard. If they drop the Gambit, it would enable actually theological conversation with them too.
Any word on this @pnelson?
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### Author:  [@Roy](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Roy)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2019, 11:00am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/11 "2019-04-08T11:00:34Z")
> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Actually I’m really curious now. If they give up on the anonymous designer, that would be new and a really good move for them. No one ever bought that gambit, but they have kept up the rise for 25 years. It is like watching Santa Claus every year, but every one even the kids knows it’s just uncle Bob in a beard. If they drop the Gambit, it would enable actually theological conversation with them too.
Not really - if the DI were to admit that they’ve been deliberately deceiving everyone about ID for two decades, that rather dampens any further discussion since you’d never know\* whether they were just pushing a different Big Lie.
\*Ok, you probably would, given their total inability to hide their motives previously.
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### Author:  [@Argon](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Argon)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/12 "2019-04-08T16:20:03Z")
> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Actually I’m really curious now. If they give up on the anonymous designer, that would be new and a really good move for them.
It was only anonymous in official statements, rarely in churches or behind the doors.
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2019, 5:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/13 "2019-04-08T17:28:47Z")
> [@Roy](#):
>
> Not really - if the DI were to admit that they’ve been deliberately deceiving everyone about ID for two decades, that rather dampens any further discussion since you’d never know\* whether they were just pushing a different Big Lie.
At this point, the DI coming out and admitting the designer is God would have the same impact as the WWE coming out and saying their wrestling matches are scripted.
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### Author:  [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)
#### Post date: [April 8, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/14 "2019-04-08T17:31:13Z")
It would make for more honest post-match interviews.
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### Author:  [@gbrooks9](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/gbrooks9)
#### Post date: [April 11, 2019, 5:05am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-new-frontier-of-intelligent-design-coming-in-august/5678/15 "2019-04-11T05:05:56Z")
> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> At this point, the DI coming out and admitting the designer is God would have the same impact as the WWE coming out and saying their wrestling matches are scripted.
The only real change that could happen … that would really change the psychology of the whole movement would be if Discovery simply Rejected All Attempts to Influence American Politics regarding Creationism.
That’s the only thing that would help to build trust between Discovery and the science community … and even that would take a long time to effectuate.