The Theological Significance of Descent From Adam

Fair enough, but there is a lot of traditional discourse on this.

When you get around to reading my Dabar paper, you’ll see the conception of sin I put forward is causal, not genetic, and does give some coherence to “why” the Virgin Birth. Curious your thoughts on that.

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I did and emailed my comments…but did not address that section. I’m not “set” on my view here, but the traditional (but by no means only) way of spelling out the “how” has bothered me. The Eastern church has more of a radiation model of the passing on of sin. The inevitability of sin is the same in both basic models (except for Jesus, of course, whose deity protected him from what would have been inevitable for him as a mortal human being). Heiser’s whole discussion is worth a read at least. I’ll take another look at the Dabar paper on this. I don’t think variance here upsets your overall thesis.

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@deuteroKJ, this article by @jongarvey was cited by @jack.collins and makes the case that both conceptions depend on descent:

http://potiphar.jongarvey.co.uk/2012/05/17/irenaeus-and-others-on-original-sin/

What do you think?

I’ve read the piece before. I could be wrong, but I don’t see clearly that the “how” of transmission of sin is tied to procreation. Descent is a given in order to talk about transmission to the next generation.

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Good night, friends. I have had a great time writing to all of you and hearing from you. God bless. All of you have good minds and spirits.

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I’m not saying I’m correct or have it all figured out. The proposal, however, is that it is “causal” connection. That Adam sinned and should have been executed, but God mercifully exiled him instead. If God had not shown Adam mercy, we would not exist. If Adam had not sinned, we would not exist either. So, for that reason, we are caused by an unjustified act of God’s mercy, and this has consequences that we call “original sin.”

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I’m good with this. But I can’t say we would not have existed otherwise.

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We descend from Adam; so, if he had been executed in a counterfactual world, how exactly would we still exist? It seems like nothing could have actually been there in his place to cause our existence? Kill my father when he is a baby, and there is no way I would exist. Right?

If Adam had not sinned, he would still produce progeny. I guess it comes down to who “I” am essentially. I was focused on the “what if Adam never sinned” scenario. Of course, if Adam was executed, we would not exist.

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That’s helpful.

I suppose it is surprising to bring the decision to exile versus execute into the discussion of Original Sin. It is usually understood as Adam’s act in isolation. I’m changing that script, by saying Original Sin emerges from Adam’s act as it interacts with God’s merciful response. That is a good thing to make clear. I suppose that is surprising.

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Joshua,
This is the idea I am proposing in this Biologos-Forum thread.
See also this article.

Nonetheless the idea implies that after Adam’s sin also those “outside the garden” come into existence in the state of Original sin, even if they are not genealogical descendants from Adam.

This seems to me a point deserving deeper discussion.

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You can start a thread focused on your view, or a focused question.

Or are you asking me to flesh out my view? Briefly, I think that original sin is complex, with several distinction components to carefully separate out. Each component transmits in different ways, but at least one component is transmitted by natural descent. In our current moment, we are all subject to all components of original sin, but in the past there would have been intermediary categories.

If you like, I can map what I am thinking on another thread. Perhaps you can help me make it more coherent.

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@AntoineSuarez , @swamidass:

I used to be dead-set against any interpretation of Original Sin. But in the context of a dual creation scenario, various ways of accommodating original sin become possible!

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I would like to propose we start a thread where you flesh out your view and I mine, and thereafter establish what is common ground and discuss the conditions to reach agreement on other points. If this is possible it would be a great result!

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@swamidass:

Josh, do you agree to my proposal?

If yes, I would be thankful if you would start the thread: you know better how to manage this conveniently.

Antoine

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Okay. I’ll give it a shot…

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From http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/arguments-for-atheism/problems-with-original-sin/inherited-guilt/

Problems With Original Sin

The doctrine of the Fall offers a reconciliation of the imperfection of the world and the perfection of its Creator. God’s creation was originally good, according to this doctrine, but then the first man, Adam, sinned. As a result of this Fall, sin entered the world, and now all suffer the affliction of original sin.

This doctrine is an important part of the Christian tradition: not only does it exonerate God from responsibility for the existence of evil, it also grounds the idea that sin is universal and so that every one of us is in need of salvation. The doctrine of original sin does a lot of theological work.

There are at least three varieties of fall-theory, three ways in which original sin can be understood. First, it can be understood in terms of inherited guilt; second, in terms of inherited corruption; third, in terms of individual falls.

Each of these forms of the doctrine, though, has its problems; it is very difficult to make sense of original sin, to explain it in plausible terms. It may be that the doctrine, despite its traditional importance, must be abandoned. If this is the case, then it is a massive blow to Christianity, and so a powerful weapon in the armoury of the atheist.

Some have proposed accounts of original sin in terms of inherited guilt, according to which mankind bears a corporate responsibility for the first sin of the first man. On this approach, each of us is guilty of Adam’s sin, just as if we had committed that sin ourselves.

How this can be divides those who advance this version of the doctrine. Some appeal to the idea of corporate identity, suggesting that in some significant sense we and Adam are one and the same, and so that we bear the guilt for his sin. Others appeal to the idea of participation, suggesting that we were all in some sense in Adam at the time of the Fall, and so that we fell along with him. Still others appeal to the idea of representation, suggesting that although we were not directly involved in Adam’s sin, Adam was our representative in Eden and so in sinning acted for all of us.

Inherited Corruption

A second approach to original sin explains it in terms of inherited corruption. According to this approach, we are not sinful because we are guilty of the first sin of Adam, but rather we are corrupted as an effect of that transgression. In what sense we are thought to have been affected by Adam’s sin varies.

Some accounts of this kind hold that we are corrupted through physical heredity, that Adam’s sin corrupted his nature and that this corruption was then passed on to us. Others describe the transmission of Adam’s sinfulness in terms of social heredity, suggesting that Adam’s sin set a bad example which humanity has subsequently persistently followed.

Individual Falls

A third group have pursued an altogether more mysterious line of thought. Groups within Christianity have long thought that the account of Genesis 3 does not tell the literal truth; the story of Adam in the garden of Eden has often been taken to be an allegorical description of the real fall of mankind. This perspective leaves a lot of room to develop a different account of the real fall allegorised in Genesis.

Some have taken this opportunity. Typically, the accounts developed have postulated individual pre-natal falls for each of us. On these views, original sin is seen as the result of moral errors that each of us committed before our lives began, rather than as the result of a sin committed by a distant ancestor in Eden. Whether our moral errors are thought to have been made in a prior physical existence, in a prior spiritual existence, or somehow outside of time, depends on the particular version of the theory in question.

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Do you want to cite where you copied this from?

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Sorry, Citation made

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