# The Validity of Christian Religious Experiences

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [September 11, 2020, 1:12am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696 "2020-09-11T01:12:21Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![Michelle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michelle/32/7229_2.png) [@Michelle](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michelle)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/41 "2020-09-12T14:45:41Z")

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I found these additional links/posts from here on Peaceful Science describing other similar experiences that others have had leading them to become born again:

> **[Why I Believe in the Resurrection](https://peacefulscience.org/articles/sy-garte-resurrection/)**
>
> Sy Garte saw Jesus in a dream. Can a scientist believe a miracle like the resurrection? Miracles, by definition, are not addressable by science.

> [@Faith, Belief, and Reason](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/faith-belief-and-reason/7099):
>
> Pure idle curiosity, as I said. Mostly, I wonder whether it has anything to do with Exodus. Also, I do wonder what “faith in atheism” means. I quite like William Lane Craig’s definition of faith: “[Faith is trusting in that which you have reason to believe is true. Once you have come to believe that something is true, using reliable epistemological means, you can then place your faith or trust in those things](https://www.christiantoday.com/article/faith-is-not-a-way-of-knowing-it-is-a-way-of-trusting-william-lane-craig-explains-christian-thinking-to-atheists/36779.htm).” I had come to believe that atheism was true, and that it was the best explanation of my world and experiences. I trusted that it would continue to be so. However when I had an experience that my atheism could not easily explain I lost my trust in it. When I was growing up one of my favourite authors was Carl Sagan, a strong advocate of the conflict thesis that faith and reason are mutually exclusive. I viewed religion and spiritually as the way that pre-scientific people explained away natural phenomena that they didn’t understand, excusable for them perhaps but in a mode…

> [@Faith, Belief, and Reason](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/faith-belief-and-reason/7099/38):
>
> Perhaps it would help if I elaborated further. I don’t know if you are familiar with the story, but it states that Pharaoh was willing to let them go, so God “hardened his heart”, he refused to let them go, God punishes him with another plague, repeat. This seemed to me completely unfair and unjust, and I was feeling quite indignant about it. Why would this God character do this? Then I got to the start of [chapter 10](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+10%3A1-2&version=NIV). Its really hard to find words for what happened next. A voice said sadly “but you forgot”. Not angry or condeming, just incredible sadness. I don’t know if I heard it or it was just in my head, but it kept reverberating around in my mind, worse than an annoying catchy radio jingle. I have a fear of heights, and I felt a feeling of vertigo, similar but far more then when I crawled as close to the edge of [Castle Point Hill](https://www.freewalks.nz/sites/www.freewalks.nz/files/styles/full__smartport/public/images/tracks/castle_point_hill_2.jpg?itok=kfiJWuEe) as I could. I also felt a feeling of wonder and awe, similar but far more than the first time I saw Saturn and its rings through the [Thomas Cooke Tele…](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Place_at_Carter_Observatory#The_Thomas_Cooke_Telescope)

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/42 "2020-09-12T14:46:55Z")

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> [@Michelle](#):
>
> My hesitation comes from an expectation that my story would be met with criticism by skeptics, but if there is genuine interest, perhaps I’ll work on a post and share later.

By the way, I will be skeptically criticizing your account if you choose to share, but I’ll try to be polite and respectful about it. So decide accordingly.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/43 "2020-09-12T19:10:58Z")

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> [@Michelle](#):
>
> I found these additional links/posts from here on [Peaceful Science](http://peacefulscience.org/) describing other similar experiences that others have had leading them to become born again:

That’s a good example of what I am talking about. What is he actually describing? He forgot something he had read and then, when he re-read the passage he had forgotten, he felt sad about forgetting. That’s it. Then he attributes this to the particular god in which he believes, for no good reason that I can see, and has a bunch of warm and gushy feelings because his god, so he believes, it “talking” directly to him.

Not very impressive.

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**Author:** ![Michelle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michelle/32/7229_2.png) [@Michelle](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michelle)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/44 "2020-09-12T19:30:21Z")

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God gives each person what they need, so God’s speaking is specific and personal to each individual, That is part of why the relationship/experience aspect if the faith is hard to explain. Perhaps those stories do not resonate with you, because they are not your story. However I enjoy reading those stories of God acting in specific ways in people’s lives, because I have my own story. That is what I find so beautiful about these types of testimonies: how specific they are to each individual. God reveals Himself and shows His love in such personal ways.

Also God speaks to the whole person: to our emotions and to our intellect. I find that the Cross speaks the truth of my lived experience about what the world needs: Justice, Love and Grace

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/45 "2020-09-12T19:32:57Z")

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@Faizal_Ali, watching this conversation unfold, I honestly wonder if it is one of those things you just have to see for yourself. Sometimes seeing is believing. Is that something to which you are open? (not that I can produce it for you on demand 🙂 )

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/46 "2020-09-12T19:40:29Z")

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Not really. People are describing things that, seem to me, are quite familiar to all people, whether or not Christian, and then asserting that can only be explained by the Christian god, without saying why this is.

It’s as if there were a bunch of people saying they have seen a unicorn, and when I ask them to describe it they say, “Well, it’s a about the size of a chicken, is covered with feathers, swims, flies and says ‘Quack.’”

When I reply they say this sounds just like a duck, they say “Yes, we realize that. But if you actually saw it for yourself, you’ll realize it’s actually a unicorn.”

Why would I expect to see anything other than a duck when I see this alleged unicorn?

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**Author:** ![Mark10.45](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/mark10.45/32/8930_2.png) [@Mark10.45](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark10.45)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/47 "2020-09-12T19:56:46Z")

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I’m with @swamidass on this…

As a chef, people often ask me about a food they have never tried…“what does it taste like”. To which I have no choice but to say, “here, try it.” There is no other response that would adequately describe the flavor of X dish. You have to experience it. Then someone comes along and says, “I don’t like X dish.” or I don’t like X component of X dish, can I get it without X? Mostly I just say, “No” because then it is not representative of the truth. If I do accommodate a change, it is with the understanding that the dish is no longer X. But if they don’t try it, they will never know.

Duck is a great example…a lot of people say they don’t like duck, then I make them some awesome Confit, make them take a bite, and they go, OH! is that what its supposed to taste like?

Anyway, the point is that there are three people here that have never met saying exactly the same thing, in the same way…and there are millions that would agree…so it is either mass hysteria or truth…the duck doesn’t taste like chicken (or unicorn), but you won’t know until you take a bite.

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**Author:** ![Michelle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michelle/32/7229_2.png) [@Michelle](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michelle)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/48 "2020-09-12T20:04:25Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> a bunch of people saying they have seen a unicorn

Where your unicorn analogy breaks down is that people are not claiming to have only seen a strange phenomenon one-time. The way they are describing their experience with God is as an ongoing life-changing relationship. After I met my husband my life changed and my life would not be the way it is today and I would not have the family I have now if I had never met him. After I understood the Cross, I now see myself and the world differently. I also continue to want to nurture my relationship with God through reading Bible, through prayer, worship, thankfulness, church community, and by living my life differently than I would have before.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/49 "2020-09-12T21:06:09Z")

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> [@Michelle](#):
>
> Where your unicorn analogy breaks down is that people are not claiming to have only seen a strange phenomenon one-time.

Not at all. I had in mind a situation in which people believe they are constantly seeing these “unicorns”, throughout their lives.

> [@Michelle](#):
>
> After I met my husband my life changed and my life would not be the way it is today and I would not have the family I have now if I had never met him. After I understood the Cross, I now see myself and the world differently.

And, of course, your husband is a real person. But surely you appreciate that such life changes are not only the result of personal relationships. Other people might consider their lives similarly changed by reading the works of a philosopher like Aristotle or Aqunas or Kant or whomever. That does not mean they have an active, personal relationship with these long-dead people. But, in a sense, they do have a relationship with these people in the form of continuing to engage with them thru their words and ideas, which live on.

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**Author:** ![Michelle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michelle/32/7229_2.png) [@Michelle](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michelle)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/50 "2020-09-12T21:17:16Z")

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Jesus did not stay dead, but rose again and still lives, which is one reason why Christians can talk about having an ongoing relationship with Jesus in a way someone would not speak about having a relationship with a long dead philosopher

As @swamidass pointed out further up in this thread, people also don’t talk about having ongoing relationships with Mohammed or Buddha, likely because they were not resurrected either.

But the resurrection was already the topic of debate on another long thread, so I’m not suggesting that be hashed out again now.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/51 "2020-09-12T23:42:01Z")

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> [@Michelle](#):
>
> As @swamidass pointed out further up in this thread, people also don’t talk about having ongoing relationships with Mohammed or Buddha, likely because they were not resurrected either.

Correction: Belief in the resurrection of Mohammed or Buddha is not part of the Islamic or Buddhist faith. Maybe they were also resurrected, but didn’t tell anyone. How would you know?

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**Author:** ![Mark10.45](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/mark10.45/32/8930_2.png) [@Mark10.45](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark10.45)\
**Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 2:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/52 "2020-09-13T14:40:24Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Maybe they were also resurrected, but didn’t tell anyone. How would you know?

They weren’t. That’s the point, they did not have power over death, they were not God, they were just men. There were hundreds of witnesses to Jesus’ death and resurrection. If Mohammed or Buddha had power over death, it would have been shouted from the rooftops.

That’s actually the entire point of the bible…if you put your faith and trust in men you will die…if you put your faith and trust in God, you will have eternal life. It’s a choice (but not an easy choice to make).

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/53 "2020-09-13T14:43:52Z")

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> [@Mark10.45](#):
>
> They weren’t.

How do you know that?

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/54 "2020-09-13T14:48:04Z")

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> [@Mark10.45](#):
>
> There were hundreds of witnesses to Jesus’ death and resurrection.

That is an unsubstantiated claim. We do not have a single, solitary account from someone who so much as claims to have witnessed the alleged event. What we do have are stories, written decades after the date of Jesus’s death, about people who are supposed to have witnessed this. Not nearly the same thing.

We _do_ have hundreds of documented accounts from people who insist they have seen Bigfoot. But I suspect you do not accept the existence of Bigfoot as a fact. If so can you explain why you deny the existence of something with orders of magnitude better evidence than the resurrection of Jesus which, in addition, does not involve the violation of any natural laws?

> [@Mark10.45](#):
>
> That’s actually the entire point of the bible…if you put your faith and trust in men you will die…if you put your faith and trust in God, you will have eternal life.

Yes, I know that. Other religious texts make different points.

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**Author:** ![ho\_idiotes](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ho_idiotes/32/9233_2.png) [@ho\_idiotes](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/ho_idiotes)\
**Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/55 "2020-09-13T15:17:37Z")

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[@moderators](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/groups/moderators) Just curious, should the discussion about the validity of Christian experience be split into a different thread? It is interesting as a topic in its own right, but doesn’t seem relevant to the post topic

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**Author:** ![Mark10.45](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/mark10.45/32/8930_2.png) [@Mark10.45](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark10.45)\
**Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/56 "2020-09-13T15:17:39Z")

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Regarding no one having power over death except Jesus:  
Ecclesiastes 8, Revelation 20-22, Psalm 89, Hosea 13, Romans 8, Phillipians 3, Hebrews 2

Regarding Jesus being the way to eternal life:  
The Gospels, Matthew/Mark/Luke/John - The entire New Testament

And I know in my heart…that is to say, I believe every word of the bible. I don’t expect to sway you, but I know.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/57 "2020-09-13T15:27:11Z")

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> [@Mark10.45](#):
>
> I don’t expect to sway you, but I know.

OK, so long as you don’t expect me to be persuaded by, or even respect, your way of thinking.

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 3:29am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/58 "2020-09-14T03:29:52Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> The problem is that these descriptions are similar to experiences I and, I’m pretty sure, everyone has had, only with a superfluous religious aspect tagged on. It’s the equivalent of saying “I ate a chocolate fudge sundae and it tasted really good, and I knew I was having an encounter with the Spirit of God.”

I really don’t know if this will help but this video describes one of the craziest conversion experiences I’ve ever heard and what his personal relationship with Jesus meant practically in his life. Since he has a mental disorder (I don’t want to ruin the video or the ending by saying more 😉 ; it’s very gripping), it might be interesting to you as a psychiatrist. [https://youtu.be/DakEcY7Z5GU](https://youtu.be/DakEcY7Z5GU)

I also find it interesting I resonate with every one of these Christian testimonies. I think that’s also relevant as we believe the Holy Spirit unites us: We can all tell we have the same relationship with the person of Jesus or the person of the Holy Spirit, without knowing much else about each other. I believe that would distinguish it from other experiences. If we all had a mutual friend, and one of us was describing that friend without mentioning a name, the other person would say, “wait, are you talking about so and so?” By the description of the person and the relationship, we would recognize that person has to be the same friend.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Michelle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/michelle/32/7229_2.png) [@Michelle](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Michelle)\
**Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 11:20am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/59 "2020-09-14T11:20:49Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> By the description of the person and the relationship, we would recognize that person has to be the same friend.

The other reason Christians talk about the relationship-nature of their faith is the change that happens when they go from not knowing God to wanted to spend more and more time with God: reading the Bible and listening to good preaching to learn more about God, spending time in worship, praying about various things that come up in their lives throughout the day, spending time in fellowship with other believers who have the same love for Jesus. I did not do those things for the 1st 20 years of my life before becoming a Christian and thought they would have been a waste of time. Now those activities are essential to my sense of well-being and bring joy and a sense of purpose to my life.

**To summarize some of the points in this thread about why born again Christian’s describe their faith as being a relationship with God:**

1. When born again Christians come to an understanding of what Jesus accomplished on the Cross (demonstrating His ability to conquer Evil through Love, Justice and Grace), they have a change in perspective that changes how they see the world and how they live going forward.
2. Christians have personal experiences in which they sense God reaching them in specific ways that are unique, individual and personal to themselves
3. Jesus did not stay dead but was resurrected, so He is still alive. It is valid to discuss having an ongoing relationship with someone who is still living.
4. An ongoing relationship accurately describes the Christian desire to spend time with God in Bible reading, prayer, worship and fellowship with other believers

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**Author:** ![Patrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b2d939/32.png) [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)\
**Post date:** [September 14, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/the-validity-of-christian-religious-experiences/11696/60 "2020-09-14T11:48:37Z")

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Isn’t what you are describing just learning more about one’s self? It is all introspective. As an atheist, I do all the activities that you describe without any God, nor the Bible, and without prayer. Yet introspective thought is essential to my sense of well being and brings joy and a sense of purpose to my life. How do you explain that atheists can achieve the same joy and sense of purpose in their lives without God?

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