# Theological Premises in Design Arguments?
**URL:** https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/theological-premises-in-design-arguments/1453
**Category:** Side Conversation
**Tags:** Theology
**Created:** [September 1, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/theological-premises-in-design-arguments/1453 "2018-09-01T19:47:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 8
**Page:** 10
### Author:  [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/theological-premises-in-design-arguments/1453/184 "2018-10-04T14:38:31Z")
> [@Mark](#):
>
> I accept the MAIN conclusions of scientists regarding evolution and climate change, but think that ideally, the state should get out of the education business altogether,
Are you against secular public education funded by taxes? I believe that education is a human right. How would you assure that every child has access to an education?
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### Author:  [@Mark](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/theological-premises-in-design-arguments/1453/185 "2018-10-04T19:28:08Z")
I’d rather not discuss the ins and outs at the moment, but the short answer is, I think there’s good reason to believe education could be provided without the state. And if someone has a “right to education,” this means that you have the right to enslave someone to educate your child.
The only rights, from a libertarian POV, that exist, are negative rights. The right not to be killed, to not be aggressed against, to not be stolen from, etc.
As Christians, we have OBLIGATIONS to provide for the less fortunate but this is different from someone having a RIGHT to food, healthcare, education, etc. this would necessarily imply enslavement of others to provide that right.
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/theological-premises-in-design-arguments/1453/186 "2018-10-04T19:47:17Z")
> [@Mark](#):
>
> I’d rather not discuss the ins and outs at the moment, but the short answer is, I think there’s good reason to believe education could be provided without the state. And if someone has a “right to education,” this means that you have the right to enslave someone to educate your child.
>
> The only rights, from a libertarian POV, that exist, are negative rights. The right not to be killed, to not be aggressed against, to not be stolen from, etc.
>
> As Christians, we have OBLIGATIONS to provide for the less fortunate but this is different from someone having a RIGHT to food, healthcare, education, etc. this would necessarily imply enslavement of others to provide that right.
History has shown that important social systems fail when they rely solely on donations. This is why we have Social Security, Medicare, and yes, public education. If you think taxes are enslavement then nearly the whole world is living in slavery. I don’t think that makes much sense.
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### Author:  [@Patrick](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Patrick)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/theological-premises-in-design-arguments/1453/187 "2018-10-04T22:58:25Z")
> [@Mark](#):
>
> As Christians, we have OBLIGATIONS to provide for the less fortunate but this is different from someone having a RIGHT to food, healthcare, education, etc. this would necessarily imply enslavement of others to provide that right.
First of all, I am not a Christian. But I am an American citizen. I believe that it is an American citizen’s birthright to the freedoms in the US Constitution, as well as a right to an education and a right to healthcare and minimal subsistence housing and food, income. I don’t think it is the responsibility of religious organizations to provide essential services to people, instead it is the responsibility of a responsive government to provide these essential services in the most efficient and cost effective manner to everyone equally without regard to their ability to pay. Of course, those who have the ability to pay can get more that minimal essential services. I am a capitalist not a communist. 😉
This shouldn’t be the case in America:
> **[Leon Lederman dies at 96, sold Nobel Prize medal to pay for medical care](https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2018/10/04/leon-lederman-dies-at-96-sold-nobel-prize-medal-to-pay-for-medical-care/)**
>
> Here's a really disturbing tweet (h/t: Matthew):https://twitter.com/TinyWriterLaura/status/1047857585263665153Leon Lederman was a beloved Chicago colleague who received the 1988 Physics Nobel
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### Author:  [@Mark](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Mark)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/theological-premises-in-design-arguments/1453/188 "2018-10-05T00:38:31Z")
Haha. Yes, nearly half the world is essentially living in slavery in this regard. That is correct. Essentially the entire world used to approve of owning slaves, and now most everyone considers everyone before us to be wrong in that regard.
It might be helpful to look at Austrian economics, particularly Mises and Rothbard. As far political philosophy goes, which probably wouldn’t be at all convincing without first understanding the basics of Austrian economics, Lysander Spooner is great as is Murray Rothbard’s “Anatomy of the the State.”
I know what I’m saying sounds outlandish and insane, and maybe it is. But I’ve only encountered 1 or 2 people who have read through Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazzlit and or Human Action by Mises and kept their more progressive political outlook.
I’m actually quite relieved at the response to what I’ve said. I was expecting someone to call for my beheading.
Thanks for talking in a civil manner.
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### Author:  [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)
#### Post date: [October 5, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/theological-premises-in-design-arguments/1453/189 "2018-10-05T15:06:19Z")
> [@Mark](#):
>
> I’m actually quite relieved at the response to what I’ve said. I was expecting someone to call for my beheading.
>
> Thanks for talking in a civil manner.
I would much rather have people give voice to crazy ideas than make everyone agree with me. 😉
Just as a very quick counterpoint before this totally goes off the rails. In the US we have the right to bear arms and the right of a free press. I don’t know of anyone who is being forced to make guns or write newspapers. It seems that the government is able to create and/or support economically viable systems that serve those rights while avoiding slavery or indentured servitude.
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### Author:  [@system](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/system)
#### Post date: [November 14, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/theological-premises-in-design-arguments/1453/190 "2019-11-14T20:25:03Z")
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### Author:  [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)
#### Post date: [January 2, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/theological-premises-in-design-arguments/1453/191 "2020-01-02T00:00:22Z")
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