# Trees and Star Diagrams

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/trees-and-star-diagrams/11569>\
**Category:** Conversation\
**Tags:** Science\
**Created:** [September 1, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/trees-and-star-diagrams/11569 "2020-09-01T16:53:13Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 6\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/trees-and-star-diagrams/11569/41 "2020-09-03T16:38:54Z")

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> [@Dan\_Eastwood](#):
>
> Eric is aware of some of existing problems (and this discussion) and will likely make some revisions.

I can’t find this anywhere so far, but it seems crucial: what is the process of “gene” creation? Is he randomly choosing a number from 1 to whatever? And what is the whatever?

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/trees-and-star-diagrams/11569/42 "2020-09-03T16:51:09Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> I can’t find this anywhere so far, but it seems crucial: what is the process of “gene” creation? Is he randomly choosing a number from 1 to whatever? And what is the whatever?

I believe you are correct; he randomly assigning a number with no duplicates. One of my suggestions was that he define how trees/graphs are generated.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/trees-and-star-diagrams/11569/43 "2020-09-03T18:22:38Z")

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What is the range of random numbers he’s using? And it does seem that he has reinvented a form of presence/absence parsimony, though I’m not sure he’s evaluated more than one tree against a star tree by that criterion. His point seems to be that a fully resolved tree can be more parsimonious than a star tree, even for random data. But what does that show? Certainly not what he seems to think.

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**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/trees-and-star-diagrams/11569/44 "2020-09-03T19:58:55Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> What is the range of random numbers he’s using?

I don’t know. I think it’s just a label.

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> His point seems to be that a fully resolved tree can be more parsimonious than a star tree, even for random data. But what does that show? Certainly not what he seems to think.

I stopped trying to understand what it shows when it became apparent that Eric doesn’t understand either. It just wasn’t worth my time to figure it out just to explain it to him. I won’t fault him for exploring ideas.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 11:01pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/trees-and-star-diagrams/11569/45 "2020-09-03T23:01:05Z")

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> [@Dan\_Eastwood](#):
>
> I think it’s just a label.

Sorry, I don’t know what you mean here. What’s just a label? It seems to me that he must have chosen “genes”, identified by numbers, from a small pool of integers from 1 to some unknown number. If he doesn’t tell you the number how can you make any sort of probability calculation?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Dan\_Eastwood](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dan_eastwood/32/2368_2.png) [@Dan\_Eastwood](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Dan_Eastwood)\
**Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/trees-and-star-diagrams/11569/46 "2020-09-03T23:06:35Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Sorry, I don’t know what you mean here.

I’ve told you all I know.

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