Uses of logical arguments in debate


(Ann Gauger) #121

@T_aquaticus, I am not talking about proteases, I am talking about biosynthetic pathways that require the very thing they are making in order to make more of it. It creates a sort of bootstrap problem. I am interested to hear what you will say.



Could you give us an example? I have experience with micro-cycling assays which seem to be similar, and the NAD/H cycle that happens in mitochondria seem applicable. Is this what you are thinking of?

(Dale Cutler) #123

It doesn’t make sense to you that an engineer has contol over his design, a composer has control over his composition, a potter over the clay, and an immaterial Creator of the material cosmos contol over it and is not subject its confines.

(Mikkel R.) #124

There has to be something there to have control over, before you can assert that control, right? If there is nothing, what is it that is being controlled?

(Dale Cutler) #125

“Philosophically speaking, an eternal universe would seem more consistent with an atheistic, naturalistic view of reality. For if the universe is eternal, then it needs no causal explanation, thus no need to postulate God as a necessary causal agent. (Though, ironically, atheists often fail to appreciate that if God exists as an eternal and necessary being then he, too, would need no causal explanation.)” Emphasis added.

Scientific Discovery and God: The Universe, Part 1

(Mikkel R.) #126

There is no answer to my question in that.

If there is no thing in existence, in what way is God in control of it? It does not even exist!

(Dale Cutler) #127

That is just another denial of the existence of the immaterial and a failure to even understand the concept of God, let alone deny his reality.

(Dale Cutler) #128

I think it’s cool that QM may be hinting that information is the fundamental reality of the universe. Information is immaterial.

(Mikkel R.) #129

You’re still not actually answering my question.

There has to be something there to have control over, before you can assert that control, right? If there is nothing, what is it that is being controlled?

(Dale Cutler) #130

If you have the power to create something physical (let’s say out of information :wink:), then something exists for you to have control over.

(Dale Cutler) #131

“…what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.”

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

(Ann Gauger) #132

Something like that, but more like the biosynthesis of NADH itself. I am not certain of its provenance, though, since there are probably multiple ways to get various components that make up NADH, but are there any essential sets (required in all pathways) that require NADH or NAD? If so you have a problem. Or if the same problem exists for any of the essential precursors for NAD.

This is not a simple problem, and requires computational biology I suspect to search all the possible known pathways.

(Mikkel R.) #133

Information is something, not nothing. So there was information before the universe or what?

(Mikkel R.) #134

Invisible things aren’t “nothing”, right?

(Ann Gauger) #135

@Tim, That was in connection with a different set of experiments. These I am talking about won’t yield the same information


The essential precursors for the de novo NAD biosynthesis pathway (in yeast) appear to be L-leucine, NADPH, phosphoribosyl pyrophosphate, ATP, and L-glutamate. It looks like there are a few differences in the human pathway, but nothing drastic.

We also need to keep in mind that species take up essential nutrients from the environment to fill any needs they may have. For example, humans can’t make vitamin C, but they get what they need from other sources.

(Ann Gauger) #137


Thanks. Where does the NADPH come from then? Do you see the problem? And ATP’s biosynthesis is totally dependent on ATP. So we have a double dependency for NAD.

Look, I suspect I know what the hard core evolutionary biologists will say. Something like 1. It didn’t start this way (evidence?) 2. It’s done differently elsewhere that isn’t bootstrapped. (Where, precisely) I’d just like to know where.

(Dale Cutler) #138

Information is not nothing either, but it is immaterial and thus invisible.

(Mikkel R.) #139

Would quantum gravity then be information, immaterial, and invisible?

(Dale Cutler) #140

All apples are fruit, but not all fruit is apples.