# Valerie: Questions about TMR4A

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [November 4, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384 "2020-11-04T23:55:50Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 6

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:08am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/104 "2020-11-07T05:08:21Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> Documented human history is better than unobservable science.

“Unobservable”? And did you note that this “documented” history makes the date of the flood older than you think the universe is?

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**Author:** ![Boscopup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Boscopup](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Boscopup)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:20am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/105 "2020-11-07T05:20:03Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> Here’s a pretty good one. Documented human history is better than unobservable science. [Sumerian King List - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List)

You do realize that Sumer was in Mesopotamia, where a local Noah’s flood would be, right?

And, as others mentioned, that list either shows numerology being used or the earth is way older than 6000 years.

How do you account for continuous civilizations before and after the flood? China, Egypt, the Americas…

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:33am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/106 "2020-11-07T05:33:40Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> If you think this list is accurate, doesn’t that demonstrate that the earth is older than 6,000 years?

> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> So you believe that Dumuzid the Shepherd reigned for 36,000 years?

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> And did you note that this “documented” history makes the date of the flood older than you think the universe is?

> [@Boscopup](#):
>
> And, as others mentioned, that list either shows numerology being used or the earth is way older than 6000 years.

Well, since you asked 🙂 I have lots of opinions about this list that I would enjoy sharing 😃

So I think the list is an authentic compilation of badly translated and poorly complied Cushite records, probably first gathered under the Akkadian Empire (Nimrod) and complied and translated later to glorify some later kingdom by showing off a long, impressive history. There’s obviously a list before the flood, and the rest I think is lists of caravan sites with names of those prominent in the household and probably their ages or length of service.

Why I think that Christians should view it as evidence of a global flood:

1. The pre-flood list is similar enough to a biblical list to consider it as least to be somewhat authentic if you already believe the Bible is inspired.
2. Supporting my argument it is a list of caravan sites of an extended family:

> The list of kings is sequential, although modern research indicates many were contemporaries, reflecting the belief that kingship was handed down by the [gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_mythology) and could be transferred from one city to another,

1. You can see more information about what I think of that part of the list here: [Were the Ancients Aware of a Globe? (plus a little child psychology thrown in for fun) - #86 by thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/were-the-ancients-aware-of-a-globe-plus-a-little-child-psychology-thrown-in-for-fun/11447/86)
2. The pre-flood list seems authentic but it indicates a missing culture that we should have found if the flood was regional. It also indicate the proximity of the Akkadian Empire to pre-flood history.

> None of the following predynastic [antediluvian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_flood_myth) rulers have been verified as historical by [archaeological excavations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archeology), [epigraphical inscriptions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigraphy) or otherwise. While there is no evidence they ever reigned as such, the Sumerians purported them to have lived in the mythical era before the great deluge.

1. The obviously, weird and wrong numbering system possibly points to a bad translation because, though the pre-culture was recent, the connection to that culture had been lost. Again a recent, lost culture points to a global flood.

I had read through this a long time ago. [The Antediluvian Patriarchs and the Sumerian King List | Answers in Genesis](https://answersingenesis.org/bible-history/the-antediluvian-patriarchs-and-the-sumerian-king-list/) I remember disagreeing with him slightly - I think it’s not genealogy in the antediluvian part of the Sumerian King’s list but a list of priest-kings, since it’s not the same. And I remember thinking the list used a sophisticated combination of base 10 and 60, not quite the ones he mentions. I played with the numbers a bit. I think they correspond to length of reign, not age.

> [@Boscopup](#):
>
> You do realize that Sumer was in Mesopotamia, where a local Noah’s flood would be, right?

Yes, Sumer was the first civilization after the Tower of Babel.

> [@Boscopup](#):
>
> How do you account for continuous civilizations before and after the flood? China, Egypt, the Americas…

These were after the flood (China, India settled very soon after Babel). I believe there’s evidence that very early America settlements were small outposts of other civilizations. Someone posted a link to one once that Todd Wood has shared. I think they were flooded after the ice age ended, and now we’re finding them again. And then the Americas were resettled again later, permanently after an ice age(s) had ended.

Also for a fun bonus. I enjoyed researching this too.  
I’m quite convinced this is the site of the Tower of Babel:

> **[Tell Brak | Early settlement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Brak#Early_settlement)**
>
> The earliest period A, is dated to the proto Halaf culture c. 6500 BC, when a small settlement existed. Many objects dated to that period were discovered including the Halaf pottery. By 5000 BC, Halaf culture transformed into Northern Ubaid, and many Ubaid materials were found in Tell Brak. Excavations and surface survey of the site and its surroundings, unearthed a large platform of patzen bricks that dates to late Ubaid,\[note 1\] and revealed that Tell Brak developed as a

> **[Tell Brak Home](https://www.tellbrak.mcdonald.cam.ac.uk/home.html)**
>
> An introduction to the Tell Brak archaeological excavation project. Tell Brak, located in northeastern Syria, is one of the world’s earliest cities, which reached urban
> scale and complexity by the early 4th millennium BC and retained
> political...

> **[Tell Brak (Syria)](https://scholar.harvard.edu/jasonur/pages/tell-brak)**

[http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~jasonur/pdf/Ur\_2008\_Symbols.pdf](http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~jasonur/pdf/Ur_2008_Symbols.pdf)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:36am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/107 "2020-11-07T05:36:52Z")

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So, in other words, the Sumerian king list is documented history except that it’s all wrong, but except for that it’s proof of the flood. Wow.

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:37am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/108 "2020-11-07T05:37:23Z")

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Sort of. 🤣

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**Author:** ![nwrickert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/nwrickert/32/810_2.png) [@nwrickert](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/nwrickert)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:52am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/109 "2020-11-07T05:52:51Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> I’m quite convinced this is the site of the Tower of Babel

For me, growing up as a Christian, the Tower of Babel story was clear evidence that parts of Genesis are fiction. We can see how languages diversify, and it isn’t the way that the Tower of Babel story says. So the story could only be something like a “Just So” story to explain what might have seemed mysterious to people at that time.

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/110 "2020-11-07T05:56:05Z")

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> [@nwrickert](#):
>
> For me, growing up as a Christian, the Tower of Babel story was clear evidence that parts of Genesis are fiction. We can see how languages diversify, and it isn’t the way that the Tower of Babel story says. So the story could only be something like a “Just So” story to explain what might have seemed mysterious to people at that time.

When I looked into it there was an obvious explosion of languages in the near MidEast with words that were similar yet obviously different. I could start to pick out words for mother and father. Also if you look at the origin of languages and even look into the Jack and the Beanstalk story we’ve covered in the forum, I think there’s good evidence for all languages and similar stories starting there. Probably Sumerian was the original language.

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**Author:** ![AllenWitmerMiller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/allenwitmermiller/32/2519_2.png) [@AllenWitmerMiller](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/AllenWitmerMiller)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/111 "2020-11-07T06:20:08Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> Probably Sumerian was the original language.

OK. I’ll bite. How did you make that determination? What is your evidence?

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 6:43am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/112 "2020-11-07T06:43:19Z")

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Humans have always been writing and documenting everything. [List of languages by first written accounts - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_first_written_accounts)

It fits first written accounts and geographical area.

It’s also a language isolate - though that could just mean it came from the Tower of Babel too, and we don’t have an account of that proto-language. [Sumerian language - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language#Classification)

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**Author:** ![RonSewell](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/ronsewell/32/6194_2.png) [@RonSewell](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/RonSewell)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 7:07am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/113 "2020-11-07T07:07:16Z")

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Worthwhile topic, but _how far back does history go_ needs its own thread.

The AiG 2348 BC flood date does not work with the chronology of Egypt…

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**Author:** ![jongarvey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jongarvey/32/5_2.png) [@jongarvey](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jongarvey)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 7:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/114 "2020-11-07T07:15:30Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> I don’t feel like reading anything else that is confused.

_I’m_ not confused! 🙂

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 7:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/115 "2020-11-07T07:15:58Z")

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> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> It’s called physics and chemistry. These processes build complex things all the time. (Lots of that is happening in our bodies at this very moment.) I don’t understand why it would be shocking to anyone that God would create a world where this happens quite commonly.

Exactly. The point is that He created it.

> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> I can’t think of a single Biblical scholar or evangelical theologian who considers Genesis 1 to have been purposed to prevent our thinking that we came from stardust. In any case, Genesis 1 says nothing about HOW various aspects of the universe were created.
> 
> So I’m surprised that you consider your position “obvious.” (However, I’m not denying that it seems obvious to you.)

> [@AllenWitmerMiller](#):
>
> As to Genesis 1 I don’t see any evidence in the Hebrew text that separate creation of the ERETZ (earth) was emphasized at all. I don’t know where you are getting this—even from the English text.

> [@nwrickert](#):
>
> Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
> 
> The separating of the waters is not until Genesis 1:6. You are reading stuff into Genesis that is not actually there.

Verse 1 - creation of heavens and earth.  
Verse 2 - focus only on earth and its waters  
Verse 3 - creation of light  
Verse 6&7 - Expanse created to separate waters under it from waters above it.  
Verse 8 - expanse called heaven.

There is no focus on heaven until we get to verse 8. Then verse 9 God focuses on earth AGAIN before he creates in the heavens. The emphasis to me is clearly on the earth and creation pinnacles with Adam being made from the dust of the earth.

We are not supposed to think we came from stardust.

> [@nwrickert](#):
>
> Please turn off your computer. And never turn it on again. And turn off your lights, and use candles. Live like the Amish. I do have respect for the Amish who try to live a life consistent with their beliefs.
> 
> If a Biblical framework is a prerequisite for science, we would never have advanced beyond the kind of lives that the Amish live.

> **[Scientific Revolution | Significance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Revolution#Significance)**
>
> The period saw a fundamental transformation in scientific ideas across mathematics, physics, astronomy, and biology in institutions supporting scientific investigation and in the more widely held picture of the universe. The Scientific Revolution led to the establishment of several modern sciences. In 1984, Joseph Ben-David wrote:

> The history professor [Peter Harrison](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Harrison_(historian)) attributes Christianity to having contributed to the rise of the Scientific Revolution:

> historians of science have long known that religious factors played a significantly positive role in the emergence and persistence of modern science in the West. Not only were many of the key figures in the rise of science individuals with sincere religious commitments, but the new approaches to nature that they pioneered were underpinned in various ways by religious assumptions. … Yet, many of the leading figures in the scientific revolution imagined themselves to be champions of a science that was more compatible with Christianity than the medieval ideas about the natural world that they replaced.[[17]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_Revolution#cite_note-17)

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 7:17am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/116 "2020-11-07T07:17:04Z")

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> [@RonSewell](#):
>
> The AiG 2348 BC flood date does not work with the chronology of Egypt…

ohh…why not?

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**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 7:17am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/117 "2020-11-07T07:17:45Z")

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> [@jongarvey](#):
>
> > [@thoughtful](#):
> >
> > I don’t feel like reading anything else that is confused.
> 
> _I’m_ not confused! 🙂

Ok. You can answer the riddle for me. 🙂 Did we have disease before Adam’s fall into sin? Is it good?

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**Author:** ![jongarvey](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/jongarvey/32/5_2.png) [@jongarvey](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/jongarvey)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 9:44am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/118 "2020-11-07T09:44:36Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> Did we have disease before Adam’s fall into sin? Is it good?

The short answer is “Yes.” The long answer is discussed in (both) of my books, and as Os Guinness once said, you don’t demonstrate truths in sound-bytes. In other words, if a couple of sentences would answer the question, I wouldn’t have written two books (as it certainly wasn’t for the money!). One can only make a proper case with full arguments. Mere assertions cannot, by their nature, convince.

Nevertheless, here’s a shortish to medium look at the issues.

The first question is what you mean by “we,” because I wasn’t around before Adam’s sin, and maybe you weren’t either, except “in Adam’s loins.” Do you mean “Adam and Eve,” or “‘humans’ before Adam and Eve” (meaning what to you?), or “creatures in the world before before Adam and Eve”?

If Adam, though created mortal _outside_ the garden, was called to a new, spiritual, role, and ultimately to a new spiritual way of being through the tree of life - that is, if Adam and Eve dwelt in the garden in the presence of God as the first of the new humanity - then they would not have died and, in all likelihood, would not have been susceptible to disease.

Sin and exile from the garden, the tree of life and fellowship with God would bring death _and_ disease into the world, understood as “the world of Adam’s descendants.” This is the clear context of Romans 5, where the scope of “death in the world” is described as “death came to all _men_, because all _men_ sinned.”

OK, so what about “humans” before Adam? I argue, like Joshua Swamidass in _Genealogical Adam and Eve_, that “biologically modern humans” lived, and even worshipped, before Adam, as every historical, archaeological and anthropological field indicates. But the Bible is about, and for, _Adam’s_ race, not them, so it is relatively (though not completely) silent about their world.

They were as intelligent and cultural as you and me, but they were not called to the new world, the new creation, of the spirit (_pneumatikos_) like Adam and Eve were, and as in Christ modern people are called and born again, to the same hope. They did not have, or even desire, “eternity in their hearts” (Ecc 3:11).

They were, instead, of the earth (_psuchikos_), the world that was created perishable and therefore though very good, inferior to what was to come through Adam (2 Cor 15: 42-50 - one must realise that Paul is not speaking here primarily about _sin/redemption_, but about _first perishable creation/new imperishable creation_. That distinction is often missed, but is theologically crucial).

Now disease was _always_ part of the first creation for good reasons. I’m not thinking about “uncaring evolution” here, but about God’s providence. There’s not time to discuss that fully, but broadly a perishable world just _is_ the recycling of all creatures through death and rebirth (Ps 104:27-30). New generations only succeed each other by making room through the eating and decay of vegetation, through predation, parasitism and disease. Without it, the earth would have been literally knee deep in insects within a couple of years of creation. Instead, we have ecosystems of astonishing richness and wisdom.

Disease is only an “evil” because Adam and Eve had tasted the imperishable, and were destined for it had they not sinned. In fact, the real glory is that they are _still_ destined for it because God’s original purpose for them still stands, because of the work of Christ. Indeed the whole (non-human) world will eventually be transformed into the eternal and _pneumatikos_ through the same work, when he returns (as our gospel hope asserts, on the evidence of the Resurrection of Christ, the first-fruits).

What that will be like is not yet revealed. It will have affinities with the garden more than with the world of Eden outside, but it will not be a _return_ to the garden, but the fulfilment of which the garden was the seed.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/119 "2020-11-07T16:46:03Z")

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Do you understand that the first dynasty of Kish alone extends for over 18,000 years after the flood?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/120 "2020-11-07T17:27:04Z")

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> [@jongarvey](#):
>
> There’s not time to discuss that fully, but broadly a perishable world just _is_ the recycling of all creatures through death and rebirth (Ps 104:27-30). New generations only succeed each other by making room through the eating and decay of vegetation, through predation, parasitism and disease. Without it, the earth would have been literally knee deep in insects within a couple of years of creation. Instead, we have ecosystems of astonishing richness and wisdom.

How is this not incorporating false religious ideas?

> **[Saṃsāra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra)**
>
> Saṃsāra (Devanagari: संसार) is a Pali/Sanskrit word that means "wandering" as well as "world," wherein the term connotes "cyclic change" or, less formally, "running around in circles." Saṃsāra is referred to with terms or phrases such as transmigration/reincarnation, karmic cycle, or Punarjanman, and "cycle of aimless drifting, wandering or mundane existence". When related to the theory of karma it is the cycle of death and rebirth.
> The "cyclicity of all life, matter, and existence" is a fund...

Perhaps the death and rebirth, understood correctly, pointed to in Psalm 104, is an allusion to our own death and resurrection individually.

By “we” I meant humans. So the answer is not a riddle to me that requires many words to explain. We did not have disease before the fall. It is not good. God uses it for a greater good in His providence though as you’re pointing to.

> [@jongarvey](#):
>
> Sin and exile from the garden, the tree of life and fellowship with God would bring death _and_ disease into the world, understood as “the world of Adam’s descendants.” This is the clear context of Romans 5, where the scope of “death in the world” is described as “death came to all _men_ , because all _men_ sinned.”

I agree with this and I’m not sure still how you’re reconciling this to the world outside the garden. So for one group death, disease are good? For the other group they’re a result of the fall and evil? This causes you no cognitive dissonance?

I find it much easier to see that our generation is just as confused and/or wicked as those who worshipped the sun or cows. Above I pointed to evidence that written records are not much more than 4000 years old and they originate in the Middle East. That strikes no one as odd, given that other fields of study point to human activity well before that? So perhaps dating needs to be reinterpreted.

I will continue to fight for orthodoxy. Dating is the only line of evidence that points to an old earth and humans before Adam and Eve. If you look at all the other evidence carefully it all points to a global flood and no other people outside of the garden or before Adam and Eve. I will not let “science” in all of its fields of study that relies on the same underlying assumptions about dating dictate what we should believe.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![thoughtful](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/thoughtful/32/9230_2.png) [@thoughtful](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/thoughtful)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/121 "2020-11-07T17:31:11Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Do you understand that the first dynasty of Kish alone extends for over 18,000 years after the flood?

Did you actually read what I said above? Each “dynasty” is a list of people who lived at that site, and the numbers correspond to their age or length of service and it has nothing to do with a successive reign of kings. The fact that many names on the list are historically attested means the “dating” described there needs to be reinterpreted, just like we need to reinterpret dating in our day.

Apparently we’re not the only culture who wanted to create a long history that didn’t exist.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/122 "2020-11-07T17:35:33Z")

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> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> Did you actually read what I said above?

Yes. You reject everything the list says except the single bit that mentions a flood. That’s cherry-picking raised to the extreme. And this one little mention is supposed to outweigh all the geological evidence, all the historical and archeological evidence, that you choose to completely ignore. You may have no shame, but you really should be ashamed.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/valerie-questions-about-tmr4a/12384/123 "2020-11-07T17:40:59Z")

</div>

> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> Above I pointed to evidence that written records are not much more than 4000 years old and they originate in the Middle East.

Actually, the oldest written records are about 5300 years old, and they’re preceded by clay tokens that are even older. I think that actually precedes the flood, which apparently wasn’t noticed at the time.

> [@thoughtful](#):
>
> Dating is the only line of evidence that points to an old earth and humans before Adam and Eve.

Sorry, no. There are a great many lines of evidence. There is no evidence of a global flood, regardless of the date you choose for it. You can’t just dismiss science by putting scare quotes around the word.

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