# Vesuvius and the Evidence for the Resurrection

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [March 14, 2020, 2:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948 "2020-03-14T14:51:46Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/21 "2020-03-14T17:45:43Z")

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That was as confused a piece of writing as I have encountered short of Robert Byers.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/22 "2020-03-14T19:34:06Z")

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``Let’s try to back up with a definition.

> **Summary**
>
> `*https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi0hb7e2JroAhXOs54KHe1QDp4QFjABegQICxAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.simplypsychology.org%2Feyewitness-testimony.html&usg=AOvVaw2rFI5bH3edWoY9zpDTtEIa*`

> **Eyewitness** testimony is a legal term. It refers to an **account** given by people of an event they have witnessed. For example they may be required to give a description at a trial of a robbery or a road accident someone has seen. This includes identification of perpetrators, details of the crime scene etc.

The real issue at hand is if we are hearing directly from the eye witness or not. My argument is that in both cases the information is coming indirectly from the eye witness

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/23 "2020-03-14T19:55:33Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> My argument is that in both cases the information is coming indirectly from the eye witness

Your argument is wrong. Pliny’s letter, even a copy of a copy of it, fits the legal definition you quoted. What you have are Paul’s assertions that eyewitnesses existed, not even indirect (whatever you think you mean by that) information coming from the supposed witnesses, and the gospels, which don’t even assert authorship or cite sources.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/24 "2020-03-14T20:14:29Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Your argument is wrong. Pliny’s letter, even a copy of a copy of it, fits the legal definition you quoted. What you have are Paul’s assertions that eyewitnesses existed, not even indirect (whatever you think you mean by that) information coming from the supposed witnesses, and the gospels, which don’t even assert authorship or cite sources.

The only difference here is that Paul recorded verbal testimony of the Apostles. Paul was also a direct witness of Christ on his travels to Damascus were he was going to persecute Christians instead based on the encounter with Christ he joined them.

Who do you think wrote the Gospel attributed to Mathew? Who do you thing wrote the Gospel attributed to John?

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/25 "2020-03-14T20:18:19Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> The only difference here is that Paul recorded verbal testimony of the Apostles.

Bless your heart, no, he didn’t.

> [@colewd](#):
>
> Paul was also a direct witness of Christ on his travels to Damascus

No, he had a vision.

> [@colewd](#):
>
> Who do you think wrote the Gospel attributed to Mathew? Who do you thing wrote the Gospel attributed to John?

The experts are generally agreed that we don’t know, but it wasn’t Matthew and it wasn’t John. Who do you think? Of course you will just believe whatever fits your need.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/26 "2020-03-14T20:34:10Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Bless your heart, no, he didn’t.

From where do you think he learned about the life and teachings of Christ?

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/27 "2020-03-14T20:51:22Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> From where do you think he learned about the life and teachings of Christ?

From Christians? Possibly from one of the gospels? How is that relevant? When a normal person says “recorded verbal testimony”, it means the actual words said by a person. There’s none of that in what you’re calling “recorded”. You are very bad at communicating actual meaning. Sometimes that has the appearance of sophistry, but I think with you it’s accidental.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/28 "2020-03-14T21:01:02Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> From Christians? Possibly from one of the gospels? How is that relevant?

Its relevant because the information about Jesus life and works was given to him very soon after Christs crucification. If he got it from the earliest Gospel then that Gospel was written merely a few years after the crucifixion.

We know Paul spent 15 days with Peter and James in Jerusalem.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/29 "2020-03-14T21:02:52Z")

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What, if anything, is your point? If you prefer legalisms, it’s all hearsay.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 9:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/30 "2020-03-14T21:13:18Z")

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My point is there is no reason to discount Pauls writings. He was a biblical scholar so he understood the Messianic prophecies, and he had direct communication with Peter and James (eye witnesses) very soon after the Crucification.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/31 "2020-03-14T21:29:43Z")

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Hearsay. Pliny, on the other hand, is eyewitness testimony. There you have it.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/32 "2020-03-14T21:50:06Z")

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I agree you have established this claim.

The next step is to establish that Pliny is more reliable then Pauls writings given Pauls letters contain information exempt from the hearsay rule…

If you want to just take the first victory on differentiating Pauls letters and Pliny I will grant it to you and we can conclude here.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/33 "2020-03-14T23:51:29Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> The resurrection of Jesus is based are first hand evidence from multiple sources.

Wrong. There is not so much as a single word from a first hand witness.

This is a basic thing that is often misunderstood by Christians.

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:57pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/34 "2020-03-14T23:57:38Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> The next step is to establish that Pliny is more reliable then Pauls writings given Pauls letters contain information exempt from the hearsay rule…

Maybe the existence of an actual big fucking volcano, and the ruins of an actual city, including the bodies of actual victims, covered in actual volcanic ash at the actual location and from the actual time described by Pliny? Would that help? I wonder if such a thing exists…

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**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:58pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/35 "2020-03-14T23:58:49Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> The only difference here is that Paul recorded verbal testimony of the Apostles.

Like @John_Harshman, I would like to see the written passages where this is recorded.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:13am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/36 "2020-03-15T00:13:02Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Wrong. There is not so much as a single word from a first hand witness.
> 
> This is a basic thing that is often misunderstood by Christians.

It is interesting how Atheists claim authority over Christians on Christian history. I wonder if @swamidass, @AllenWitmerMiller, @dga471, @gbrooks9@RonSewell, @Eddie, @Chris_Falter or @cwhenderson would care to comment.

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**Author:** ![colewd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@colewd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/colewd)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/37 "2020-03-15T00:15:26Z")

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> [@Faizal\_Ali](#):
>
> Maybe the existence of an actual big fucking volcano, and the ruins of an actual city, including the bodies of actual victims, covered in actual volcanic ash at the actual location and from the actual time described by Pliny? Would that help? I wonder if such a thing exists…

Are there 2 billion followers of this historic event who celebrate it at least twice a year?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:36am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/38 "2020-03-15T00:36:24Z")

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No.

So I guess you’re saying the eruption of Vesuvius never happened, because 2 billion people don’t celebrate it twice a year.

You’ve outdone yourself this time.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:38am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/39 "2020-03-15T00:38:55Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> I agree you have established this claim.

Consider how long it took you to accept one simple fact. Consider that this is evidence of the strength of your cognitive bias against things you don’t want to believe and in favor of things you do want to believe. Consider trying to modify your behavior in the future.

> [@colewd](#):
>
> information exempt from the hearsay rule

?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Faizal\_Ali](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faizal_ali/32/12416_2.png) [@Faizal\_Ali](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Faizal_Ali)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:39am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948/40 "2020-03-15T00:39:55Z")

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> [@colewd](#):
>
> It is interesting how Atheists claim authority over Christians on Christian history. I wonder if @swamidass, @AllenWitmerMiller, @dga471, @gbrooks9 @RonSewell, @Eddie, @Chris_Falter or @cwhenderson would care to comment.

If any of those folks believe there is a single example of an eyewitness of account of a single moment of Jesus’s life that is accepted as such by consensus of historians, they are mistaken. But I don’t want to presume that any of the would claim it.

You, OTOH, are very welcome to provide what you believe to be examples.

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