# Vincent Torley's Response to Loke's Argument for the Resurrection

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vincent-torleys-response-to-lokes-argument-for-the-resurrection/10764>\
**Category:** Conversation\
**Created:** [May 23, 2020, 8:09pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vincent-torleys-response-to-lokes-argument-for-the-resurrection/10764 "2020-05-23T20:09:34Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 1\
**Showing post:** 16

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**Author:** ![dga471](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dga471/32/5233_2.png) [@dga471](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/dga471)\
**Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vincent-torleys-response-to-lokes-argument-for-the-resurrection/10764/16 "2020-06-05T14:41:03Z")

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> [@evograd](#):
>
> Why is that reasonable to assume? If you believe demons exist In some form but can’t break the physical laws of the universe like thermodynamics, how else are they supposed to exist/interact with the physical world?

This is just science fiction speculation from me, but one could imagine that demons and angels are beings that interact with the world in a way that may appear to violate the 2nd law, but not really. For example, perhaps the nature of their interaction with the physical world is such that there is a mechanism that dumps the excess entropy somewhere else, such as into the surrounding environment, or into some parallel universe. My point is that the 2nd law is very general and without stipulating additional restrictions, you can think of ways that the other regular laws of nature are “suspended” while still technically following the second law.

In fact, some such as @PdotdQ would go further and hold that all “miracles”, including those performed by God, have a natural explanation. The manipulation occurs at the level of initial conditions, not the laws themselves.

> [@Pesky Implementation Details in Information Theory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pesky-implementation-details-in-information-theory/1648/11):
>
> I am not sure. As God presumably has control of the data on any [Cauchy surfaces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauchy_surface), if anything atomic rearrangement from a dead state to a living state that still follows the laws of physics are not beyond His abilities. For example, for this specific instance entropy can reduce drastically. This does not violate the 2nd law as it is an isolated case and the 2nd law is statistical.

> [@Pesky Implementation Details in Information Theory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/pesky-implementation-details-in-information-theory/1648/13):
>
> The consistency of the laws of physics just specify the evolution equation, but does not specify the initial conditions (I hesitate to use the word initial as the data can be specified at any Cauchy surface, but you get the gist). Note that I am not saying this is how God does it, this is just one way it could be done.

> [@Side Comments on Christians in Science](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/side-comments-on-christians-in-science/5280/41):
>
> **An extension** of the classical teaching in the previous paragraph is the additional demand that God created the natural world to be complete ( _Genesis 1:31_ - And God saw all the things that he had made, and they were very good), and changing it is against his nature (Divine Immutability, from e.g. _Lateran Council IV_ : DS 800). He does not change the laws of physics to perform miracles. All miracles have natural explanations.

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