# Viruses and the Problem of Evil

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909>\
**Category:** Side Conversation\
**Created:** [March 12, 2020, 1:23am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909 "2020-03-12T01:23:14Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/41 "2020-03-14T13:31:10Z")

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> [@cwhenderson](#):
>
> Earlier, John had mentioned evidence for his atheism and I was merely wondering what he had in mind.

Negative evidence can be quite powerful. I may differ from @Puck_Mendelssohn in this way, but I suspect that the difference is more apparent than real.

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**Author:** ![cwhenderson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/cwhenderson/32/72_2.png) [@cwhenderson](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/cwhenderson)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/42 "2020-03-14T13:31:37Z")

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> [@faded\_Glory](#):
>
> How would you characterise the evidence for Joseph Smith’s Golden Plates?

Did anyone else besides Smith claim to have seen the plates? I realize I am looking at ancient history here, but the Bible records that hundreds of people saw Jesus after the resurrection. The beginnings of Christianity were due to the accounts of many of those eye witnesses.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/43 "2020-03-14T13:35:06Z")

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> [@cwhenderson](#):
>
> Did anyone else besides Smith claim to have seen the plates?

Does anyone claim to have seen the resurrected Jesus? You can’t count the Gospels, as they aren’t first-hand accounts. The bible “records” all manner of things, but did those things actually happen? And yes, there are supposed witnesses to the golden plates. The Book of Mormon records them! And they are indeed first-hand accounts.

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**Author:** ![cwhenderson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/cwhenderson/32/72_2.png) [@cwhenderson](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/cwhenderson)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:37pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/44 "2020-03-14T13:37:15Z")

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> [@faded\_Glory](#):
>
> Does anybody really think that a Paleolitihic human would have been able to sit down and write Beethoven’s ‘Eroica’?

Hmmmmm… good point, worthy of additional consideration. But could a Paleolithic human appreciate it (provided the whole event were not completely frightening) in much the same way as a modern human?

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**Author:** ![cwhenderson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/cwhenderson/32/72_2.png) [@cwhenderson](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/cwhenderson)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:40pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/45 "2020-03-14T13:40:45Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> This is a huge difference that seems to completely contradict what you said before.

I believe what we see biologically can be explained naturally. I could be wrong and there may be evidence at some point that would cause me to reevaluate my position on the human mind, but I believe there is more to it than mere biology.

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**Author:** ![cwhenderson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/cwhenderson/32/72_2.png) [@cwhenderson](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/cwhenderson)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/46 "2020-03-14T13:41:41Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> The Book of Mormon records them! And they are indeed first-hand accounts.

It was an honest question. I’m probably not as familiar with other religions as I should be.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/47 "2020-03-14T13:43:06Z")

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> [@cwhenderson](#):
>
> I could be wrong and there may be evidence at some point that would cause me to reevaluate my position on the human mind, but I believe there is more to it than mere biology.

You’re a dualist? You think the mind is not a product of the brain? That the soul produces the mind? I’m having trouble making sense of this.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/48 "2020-03-14T13:45:23Z")

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> [@cwhenderson](#):
>
> It was an honest question.

If you’re interested, a google of “book of mormon witnesses” will inform you.

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**Author:** ![cwhenderson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/cwhenderson/32/72_2.png) [@cwhenderson](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/cwhenderson)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/49 "2020-03-14T13:54:52Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> You think the mind is not a product of the brain? That the soul produces the mind?

I believe it is largely biological, but quite possibly more complicated than just biology. I suppose we could call the additional component a soul.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/50 "2020-03-14T13:56:26Z")

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> [@cwhenderson](#):
>
> I believe it is largely biological, but quite possibly more complicated than just biology. I suppose we could call the additional component a soul.

Your beliefs seem highly ambiguous, even to you. What is the basis for your opinion (if it really is your opinion) that there is more than biology going on?

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**Author:** ![dga471](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dga471/32/5233_2.png) [@dga471](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/dga471)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/51 "2020-03-14T23:06:51Z")

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32 posts were split to a new topic: [Vesuvius and the Evidence for the Resurrection](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/vesuvius-and-the-evidence-for-the-resurrection/9948)

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**Author:** ![faded\_Glory](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faded_glory/32/7167_2.png) [@faded\_Glory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/faded_Glory)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 9:20pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/81 "2020-03-14T21:20:26Z")

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> [@cwhenderson](#):
>
> Did anyone else besides Smith claim to have seen the plates?

11 people swore that they saw the plates.

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**Author:** ![faded\_Glory](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/faded_glory/32/7167_2.png) [@faded\_Glory](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/faded_Glory)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/82 "2020-03-14T21:29:31Z")

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> [@cwhenderson](#):
>
> But could a Paleolithic human appreciate it (provided the whole event were not completely frightening) in much the same way as a modern human?

No, I don’t think they would. There were plenty of people panning it when it was first performed.

Wikipedia recounts the words of a contemporary critic:

_\> Musical connoisseurs and amateurs were divided into several parties. One group, Beethoven’s very special friends, maintains that precisely this symphony is a masterpiece… The other group utterly denies this work any artistic value … [t]hrough strange modulations and violent transitions … with abundant scratchings in the bass, with three horns and so forth, a true if not desirable originality can indeed be gained without much effort_

Culture evolves, just like knowledge evolves. The ‘first’ humans were not nearly as different from their contemporary ‘apes’ as we are now. Perhaps the biggest difference is that humans have acquired and/or developed tools and techniques to preserve and transmit the knowledge and achievements of previous generations. Over hundreds of thousands of years this has added up to monumental differences.

Human babies are not all that different from ape babies. They grow into modern humans because they are raised, socialised and educated by the people around them. They don’t get there on their own.

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**Author:** ![Puck\_Mendelssohn](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/puck_mendelssohn/32/11849_2.png) [@Puck\_Mendelssohn](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Puck_Mendelssohn)\
**Post date:** [March 14, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/85 "2020-03-14T23:00:20Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> I may differ from @Puck_Mendelssohn in this way, but I suspect that the difference is more apparent than real.

That may be. Sometimes it depends upon what we consider “negative” evidence. To me, the evidence from neuroscience strongly suggests that there is NOT anything we might call a soul, for example. One may phrase this as “nothing in neuroscience gives support to the idea of an immaterial soul,” or as “everything in neuroscience seems to confirm that minds are the product of physical brains, so I conclude there is no soul.”

I find the absence of evidence for the gods quite impressive, stunning, and consistent. The old saw “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” often gets raised in response, but the fact is that absence of evidence is ALSO not evidence of existence, and nobody is in much doubt as to whether it fits better with the “absence” hypothesis or with the “existence” hypothesis.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:42am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/86 "2020-03-15T00:42:55Z")

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> [@Puck\_Mendelssohn](#):
>
> The old saw “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” often gets raised in response

I get tired of that old saw. It’s wrong; absence of evidence for a rhinoceros in your back yard is in fact good evidence that no rhinoceros is there. (I’m assuming that you don’t have a rhino in your back yard; correct me if I’m wrong.) Absence of evidence is evidence of absence if, given presence, we would expect such evidence. Happens all the time. Now of course we can’t rule out the sort of god who wouldn’t leave any evidence behind, but few if any people are positing that sort.

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**Author:** ![Puck\_Mendelssohn](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/puck_mendelssohn/32/11849_2.png) [@Puck\_Mendelssohn](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Puck_Mendelssohn)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 1:39am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/87 "2020-03-15T01:39:11Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> I’m assuming that you don’t have a rhino in your back yard; correct me if I’m wrong.

Speak for yourself, sir! Why do people constantly assume I do not have a rhino in my back yard?

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Absence of evidence is evidence of absence if, given presence, we would expect such evidence. Happens all the time.

Agreed.

> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> Now of course we can’t rule out the sort of god who wouldn’t leave any evidence behind, but few if any people are positing that sort.

True, BUT one notable thing is that people whose gods ought to have left evidence yet somehow have not have the habit of insisting, when this is pointed out, that to expect god to leave evidence would be “reducing” him to something contemptible, or is based upon a naïve epistemology, or is unreasonable because god IS the sort who doesn’t leave evidence behind. Of course, then they go straight back to telling you how compelling the evidence that their god has left behind is.

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**Author:** ![Giltil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Giltil](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Giltil)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 8:26am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/88 "2020-03-15T08:26:07Z")

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> [@Puck\_Mendelssohn](#):
>
> To me, the evidence from neuroscience strongly suggests that there is NOT anything we might call a soul, for example. One may phrase this as “nothing in neuroscience gives support to the idea of an immaterial soul,” or as “everything in neuroscience seems to confirm that minds are the product of physical brains, so I conclude there is no soul.”

Your conclusion is incorrect for there are plenty of evidence that the mind is not a byproduct of the brain; and thinking otherwise has dangerous medical implication.

_The brain and the mind exist in a symbiotic relationship, in which they both affect each other, but in which neither is entirely the other. As a result, to some extent, we have treat them as distinct phenomena._

> **[Why the Mind Is More Than the Brain](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/201701/why-the-mind-is-more-the-brain)**
>
> The fallacy of reducing psychology to neurology

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**Author:** ![Rumraket](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/rumraket/32/9328_2.png) [@Rumraket](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Rumraket)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 9:22am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/89 "2020-03-15T09:22:35Z")

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I don’t think the mind IS the brain. Dead people have brains. So do unconscious people.

The mind is what the brain some times does. They’re processes of change that occur over time. Sort of like convection. Convection is a process that happens in a particular type of medium.

The mind is a particular type of process that (so far is only known to) happen in brain tissues.

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**Author:** ![evograd](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/evograd/32/1233_2.png) [@evograd](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/evograd)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 10:09am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/90 "2020-03-15T10:09:15Z")

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From the psychology today article:

> This research is highly significant because it shows that the mind is not just a product of brain activity. If it were, it would be impossible for changes in psychological functioning to bring about changes in the brain, in the same way that it would be impossible for changes in the images on a computer screen to bring about changes to the circuitry of a computer.

I think this reasoning is flawed. I see no conflict between the mind being a product of the brain and cognitive therapies bringing about changes in the brain. We know that the brain is shaped by experiences, in terms of new neuronal connections etc. It seems trivial that our brain responds to stimuli, so why shouldn’t a specific set of stimuli (e.g. CBT) be able to change the way the brain works?

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**Author:** ![Puck\_Mendelssohn](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/puck_mendelssohn/32/11849_2.png) [@Puck\_Mendelssohn](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Puck_Mendelssohn)\
**Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 4:30pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/viruses-and-the-problem-of-evil/9909/91 "2020-03-15T16:30:53Z")

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evograd and Rumraket are right. The author of the piece overstates his case, and you’ve oversimplified the matter. That thinking – a process which the brain does – may affect the brain is obvious. This in no way suggests that the mind is not generated by the brain, and we have absolutely no evidence that the mind is generated by anything else.

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