Welcome Greg to the Forum

(Greg) #187

I will remain patient in seeing what some of the prominent conclusions may be drawn within this forum. This is no light matter…we are only speaking on behalf of God Himself. Just like Job’s friends who spoke for God so eloquently and confidently and in the end were embarrassed to find God declaring them as incompetents.
I have noticed a trend lately that God is not letting godless chatter and unbecomming behavior and theology slide without direct action and discipline by Him as of late. Times are different. I can give numerous examples. I will try to abide more to remain more true to Scripture and reverent to God a literal Creator of kinds so i dont get caught w my pants down so to speak.To all the players,in this discourse, there is reason for reverence. God says He created forms directly…how far do we want to take the evolution thing borrowed by the mainstream?

As far as teleology is concerned, it gets quite confusing because there seem to be players in the arguments here who SAY they accept teleology but the essence of their views is that they are repeating a mainstream naturalistic evolutionary stance and somehow suggest that God did this as He indwelt nature etc. Hey, if that is what one wants to believe, fine. This does nothing to attract a person to the real God of Scripture. In fact, if i were a non believer and recognized that a person was attempting a model that gave a rationale for materialistic common decent evolution and at the same time suggested that God really did it, i would have NO interest in that God. What an impotent God that would be…i would think that this guy is trying to pull the wool over my eyes and trying to sell me a religious book while he doesnt receive any flack from his scientist counterparts at the university for denying what they all believe: evolution. Thats a recipe for religiousity-puke. God is either God with a big G,God, or forget it…your just trying to sell me another book. Most agnostic biologists in this country lean more toward there being a God than not while still trusting evolutionism. Aren’t Christians to be beyond this? Christians believe in God, not god.

I have read some of Joshs works which propose mathematically that chimps and humans must be related. He says that no one has come up with better math to shoot this proof for evolution down. Well, what i sense is that his mistake is letting too many presumptions FOR evolution guide his setting up the model for the mathematical computation. In one post Josh makes the comment “if there is a God” or “if God exists” then yada yada. Wrong thinking. God does exist and let faith in God, Creator of kinds FIRST, direct the possibilities and math second. With God, those possibilities are endless.

For example-You will probably think of me as imbeccilic for suggesting this but here it goes anyway…who is to say that the apes did not devolve from human kind? Could we consider this in the realm of possibility? Of course, why not? I dont know…Scripture talks of God granting to sinners the state of being of the idols which they worship and ancient cultures definately did deify animals.

Considering this as a possibility in a realm of infinite possibilities on an earth that God created and is sovereign over demonstrates that applying mathematical analysis supporting the evolution from apelike to humanlike first assumes that they evolved when there could be a whole host of other options that blow up that math…some of which could be options completely out of range of what we would have expected. Yes, historical science mixing with big G God is tough. Be humble or you end up like Jobs friends.

(Alan Fox) #188

Utterly baffling! Truly, I’m deaf to the music of the spheres.

(Greg) #189

Read this this am: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/09/09/young-christians-are-leaving-church-here-s-why.html

If i were a young chap in the category that is described in this article and i sought wisdom from someone like yourself who suggests that you trust Scripture but are accepting of the methods of how complex life arrives espoused by the mainstream MORE than methods declared by a miraculous God in that He is simply our Creator, then this would cement my reasons for leaving the church. Read the article and you will understand this.

If you say you trust revelation but are seemingly invigorated more by the delights of WHAT APPEARS to be the practice of materialistic science for determining truth, then i as a searching teen wont believe you trust anything revelatory about God. Christian scientists who seem more interested to promote formulas that prove we evolved instead of highlighting the high unreasonableness that an irreducible complex bio machine was created by evolution does our young people no favors if we are concerned that they are leaving the church in droves mainly because they see no evidence that God exists! They are blind to the obvious but we can help them see!

Ultimately it is God who is sovereign. But we are charged to remind them that creation reveals about the existence of our Creator (Ro ch 1) and spread seeds of faith in Jesus dying for us. Our teens need people like you and i to SHOW them the fingerprints of God. ID does this and some articles i have read articulate well the impossibility of nature creating bio machines. The logic in this information is profoundly greater than evolutionary thinking. And the more rational ID are truly offering a life line to these kids who are leaving the church because not enough of us are around to do so. More and more scientists are siding with ID …for nature to create an eyeball via naturalistic mutations would entail not just the developing eye stumbling on beneficial baby steps called mutations towards an end product, but stumbling on the perfect sequence in these steps or the whole ball of wax gets selected out. And mutations are typically more of the cancerous type that destroys than the constructive type that builds. We know this. And to think that highly developed bio machines are EVERYWHERE including the tiniest cell. Why do we ignore the obvious intuitive declarations like this which our children long for while their minds are instead numbed by mainstream that suggests evolution is capable of constructing these bio machines. I know i know, you think God did a few things…you dont know exactly what they are, but, yea He did something. This stance is a ticket for an American teen to go straight out of the the church and to never return.
Why do you you think the atheist gentleman i had some discourse with applauds you? If he is really who he says he is anyway as in a forum anybody can act a part.

There are great testimonies out there of even agnostic people who used to believe the university to be correct but are now abiding fully in the ID ideals as a much better explanation for life. It is a much easier road from there to faith in Jesus who is the second person of our Eternal God than from a worldview that in its appearance is more of the materialist type we call evolution. I dont know about you but i am extremely bothered by the stats in that article. My wife and i have three children whom we love so dearly. The thought that they succomb to teachers in college that plant more seeds of doubt about the existence of God via evolutionism which causes them to leave their church family and God Himself…well there is no more bitter pill for my wife and i to swallow than that. Who will choose to trust God when He declares that He is our Maker and then promote the science that does see this instead of the science that seems to want to put the idea of God so far on the back burner that He is forgotten?

(Alan Fox) #190

Shouldn’t they be free to make their own destiny? What alternative would you suggest?

(Greg) #191

Have a minute here before headed to chuch…Hate to get philosophical with you but what is freedom if there is no ultimate truth? The idea of freedom being good and beneficial without choices defined as ultimately good or ultimately bad which insinuates the necessary ingredient of ultimate truth that undergird them is foolhearty. It would be the equivalent of telling my kids, “i value your freedom to choose so much that i would even validate your decision to go a pathway of addiction to heroin.” Makes absolutely no sense in this example and makes no sense extrapolated out across all arenas in life.

This brings me fill circle to why i believe the Bible is brilliant. The way the Bible treats the idea of freedom is not found in the goodness of my ability to choose, but rather the escape from the prison cell of the propensity and the fruit thereof of choosing wrongly. This fits exactly perfectly well with the stupidity of me encouraging the goodness of drug addiction because the goodness of freedom that led there was so great and mighty.

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #192

This is not a problem in science and how science is done. The problem is religion getting in the way of science. Keep your religion out of my science. Science research is neutral on the question of God’s existence or non existence. Real scientists do their work that way. So please sit in the pews, pray all you want, but please leave the scientists alone as they have important work to do in the benefit of mankind and you and your family, of course.

(George) #193


We only need to take Evolution as far as the evidence that God seems to have consistently delivered to us (via fossils and geology) … that He used Evolutionary processes for some of his Creation!

(Alan Fox) #194

You misunderstand me. You, in today’s US, have no power to prevent your kids from learning about life from other sources than you. I was asking if you would like that sort of power over your kids. Isn’t enough to raise them and equip them as best you can with your love and wisdom and then let them make their own mind on the path they choose?

Sure there are temptations. The priest at the church where I grew up succumbed to alcoholism after his wife left him. There are risks we are exposed to that, with good education, family support and guidance, we can avoid.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #195

21 posts were split to a new topic: Is Mutual Information Functional Information?

(Greg) #198

Priests can’t get married. Are Lutheran pastors called priests too? Im a little ignorant… Good thing the Christian faith is one that worships God, not man. Some church circles relay this message inappropriately too…like Mary being the conduit to God. Who made that

My wife and I are definately products of controlling mothers. My wife suffered serious eating disorders as a result. We are both well balanced today thanks to our faith in God. So i say amen to not forcing our kids into a corner. This will breed phariseeism and hypocricy not true faith in a real God. But all parents would be unloving to not pleed with their child for weighing the options and choosing to go down the right road where there is freedom! Such leadership is crucial for their benefit and utimately societys benefit. Christians also need to vocalize their worldview towards all of the thousands of voices that attempt to circumvent this sensible worldview. One person can make a huge impact if they will just be willing to get off their duff and do something

(Greg) #199

There is adequate evidence to say one trusts that all life evolved from a common decent? I do not believe that there is adequate evidence for the evolution of humans fr chimps let alone common decent.

If i presume common decent evolution, then observing genetic make up betw apes and humans of course will lead us to believe that they are part of the same tree. As you know much research suggesting the tree is non existant.

(Greg) #200

I had mentioned before and will suggest to you once again that if you are a phd scientist, you have to recognize entropy as a physical law. If you recognize this law, you have been thrust right smack dab into a wrestling match with the idea of Intelligence or as i have stated God as the only possible explanation. Explaining the existence of the sun can never be another sun, or another galaxy. That goes against science.

I think you might be like me Patrick in that you have a disdane for fruity religiousity for its own sake. That is not me. My worldview is not fake it until i make it. It is to know God and come alive in Jesus Christ!

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #201

[quote=“Greg, post:200, topic:1199”]

I have studied thermodynamic entropy and information entropy and how it is related to the universe. It is clearly science. And God is not the only possible explanation, in fact, it is not even an explanation

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #202

Yes, you do seem to be caught up in your mental delusions.

(Greg) #203

Could i ask you courteously what the other explanation is.

(George) #206


If i accept de novo (Special Creation) of Adam and Eve, what would be the problem if the rest of the animal kingdom was personally designed by God and created by evolutionary means?

That is what God’s fossil evidence appears to be telling us.

(Greg) #207

Not sure that i agree. Evolution says dinos to birds. Fossil record sees birds encased in amber in same fossil layer as dinos. Evolution says man evolve but proof now that neanderthals and denisovians both true mankind created in the image of God mating. And here is a clip on whale design…I just sent this usc research to Dr. Kurt Wise actually as it has become a little sketchy his views about whale evolution : https://pressroom.usc.edu/whale-sex-its-all-in-the-hips/

Remember: I do believe in microevolution. God grants grace of adaptation to His creation which really resembles devolution more than evolution. But common decent evolution of even animals suggest that Genesis is a fraud because God declaring his creation “good” that rides on the back of death, suffering and disposal of the physically weak and acceptance of the strong when death and suffering are always looked at as curses in the Bible, and God disposing the weak IN CREATION PURPOSES is the opposite of His nature where He is a God who cares for the weak and oppressed and chooses to reveal His strength through weak vessels to bring Him glory!

If you have not read already, some fantastic articles in www.evolutionnews.com in this last 30 days that provide a rebuttle to swamidass’ rebuttle of the Theistic Evolution book. Regardless of the way you want to think about the book, the rebuttle of swamidass rebuttle explains well the power of presumption on the part of a believer in evolution that can taint how we perceive or world via science. The very last article in a series of maybe 3 or 4 is fantastic and i find completely agreeable. In that last article, it rightly defines that it is only within a metaphysical philosophical framework that can declare that it is impossible for science to detect the handiwork of God. This metaphysical mindset is leaning to gnosticism in regard to how this belief handles in confusion the spirit world vs the material. This philosophy was refutted by the apostle Paul. When God created matter, such as the human body, He created it with value in its physical existence. To suggest that it does not matter that the creation of a physical body is accomplished by God via suffering is to suggest the gnostic philosophy that matter is evil and the spirit realm good. That is problematic.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #208

@greg of course you like those articles. The question at trustworthy person would ask: is the information used in Ann’s article true?

The answer is no. Though I do understand that is not likely important to you.

(Greg) #209

Well i am not one to just catagorize people with labels and name calling. Im not interested to pick on you or here just to win an arguement. You are obviously a brilliant man who is still just a man like all of us who are trudging through the serious implications involved when we espouse our thoughts towards this lost world. I think i can rightly call you a brother in Christ, although it is Gods business about who is truly His and not. But i still see subtle patterns of thought coming thru the hundreds of posts you front that do not rightly conform with Biblical theology and principle and i dare say rational thought. I say this as a man who has needed 30 arduous years of developing a more right mindset that conforms to Biblical precept and even God given common sense!. I cannot tell you how many hundreds of times i, as a believer reborn by the Spirit of the living God, i went along assuming one thing to be true but then corrected later in life in a process of spiritual growth called sanctification. And it is still going on. We are just men in need of His grace. I have wondered why God causes slow growth. Perhaps to keep us from spiritual pride as believers are still sinners until heaven.

As i have read and read so many articles and info bites on this website and others, i have been continuously amazed how the Spirit will bring to mind Scriptural reference and principle that either denies or supports the legitimacy of some positions espoused. Sometimes some Biblical concept will come to mind i have not thought about in 20 yrs! That is why i encourage people to get deep in this Bible. Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God. It is utterly amazing how many answers are here. God is real and He is alive. Find agreement to the Scripture that He is true and every man (this side of the fall) a liar!

(Alan Fox) #211

“Priest” is a general term. Catholic priests currently are forbiden to marry. Much misery has resulted and I fervently hope that situation changes soon. I was talking about my Anglican priest. His correct title was Reverend and his job usually described as vicar. I thought you might be unfamiliar with “vicar” so I used “priest”.