Welcome Greg to the Forum


(Greg) #127

How in the world would you, an atheist, believe that genocide is a monstrosity anyway? By what standard? And what are your thoughts about the former Soviet Union torturing and killing people of faith in order to eradicate all forms of religion? Was that wrong? And by whose standard was it wrong? I am curious why you have so much anger toward anything to do with God? Did you have a bad experience related to an organized religion or something?


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #128

I don’t need a God or an ancient book to determine what is right and what is wrong. I have my own reasoning and my own moral, eithcs and values living in modern secular America. An average kindergarten child growing up today knows right and wrong to a pretty good level of detail at the age of five. I reject comparing state mandated atheism with individual freethought atheism where the ideals of secular humanism of the Enlightenment. My anger is not to a mythological, imaginary God, it is to the people and institutions who purportedly speak for and do evil actions on behalf and in the name of that mythological, imaginary God.


(The Honest Skeptic) #129

Do you assume that only Christians love their children? It is silly to be so dogmatic, because it makes no sense. Certainly, spirit and life hold a special meaning to Christians, but that does not mean that life does not have significance to non-Christians.

Furthermore, if one has a bad experience with religion, what size sledgehammer is appropriate for the situation?


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #130

Don’t understand your question. Can you rephrase please and I will give it a try.


(Alan Fox) #131

Do you know about the Cathars?

Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius


(Bill Cole) #132

Out of the big bang or what you call a universe from nothing came atoms. These are building blocks from matter to living organisms. Your claim is that they came from nothing. How do you support that claim?


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #133

Here is the physics on how a universe made the first atoms of hydrogen, helium, and lithium. It is now fully accepted physics. Perhaps Dan can comment


(S. Joshua Swamidass) #134

To be clear @Patrick, an inflationary membrane is not nothing. @dga471


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #135

And God is not nothing either?


(The Honest Skeptic) #136

Right!! God is not nothing!!

:slight_smile:

I knew my months of tutelage would pay off!! Hahaha…


(Bill Cole) #137

So were assuming hydrogen which is lives under the rules or the 4 forces and is also mission critical for life.


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #138

I was asking a question that I still haven’t gotten a satisfactory answer to. :grinning:


(Daniel Ang) #139

Big Bang nucleosynthesis doesn’t explain where matter and the laws of physics came from. The Big Bang assumes an initial singularity or “cosmic egg” existed which then expanded and evolved into the distribution of matter we see today. In that sense, from a philosophical point of view, it’s not more special than theories of how stars and planets formed. It definitely isn’t what one is looking for when someone asks “why is there something rather than nothing?”


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #140

What is frustrating is that science keeps pushing the time envelope backwards. What happened 380,000 years after big bang, what happened 3 seconds after the Big Bang and now we know with sub-percent precision what happened after the first femtosecond after the Big Bang. I don’t see creationists appreciating the ingenuity and technological advances needed to get those answers. I am in awe of these advances in our knowledge - to know the evolution of the universe from the first femtosecond until now 13.8 billion years later. And to be able to project a trillion years into the future. Wow, that is amazing. But all creationists can do is to ask what happen before the big bang, like we are going to find God with a lighter lighting the fuse for the Big Bang. I just don’t get how intelligent minds can get so twisted up by religion.


(The Honest Skeptic) #141

Trust me, you will!!

:slight_smile:


(The Honest Skeptic) #142

What has been discovered and is in process of being discovered is utterly amazing. I grew up on Star Trek and we’re living much of it now. What an exciting time to be alive!! I don’t know why you think that creationists don’t appreciate the ingenuity and technology used to get the answers. Not everyone (religious or not) understands the technology, the physics or math behind it, but the discovery is awesome. Most folks who believe that God created the universe also believe that he did so in a way that allowed us to explore and discover. So there’s a tendency to glorify God when you learn how much effort went into allowing life on this little blue rock. To glorify the creator for the creation takes nothing away from the explorer who discovered it. It’s just a different response. It’s like having two kids and the first kid being upset that you love the other. It’s a natural response for us.


(Greg) #143

Well starting w the last part first, the size of sledgehammer was important to Jesus. He hit the self righteous pharisees, most of whom memorized much of the OT w the big sledge. He showed more gentleness to the those found in more socially reprehensible sins such as prostitutes and tax collectors because He knew that they knew their need for forgiveness and reconciliation to the God who loves them…this is much harder for the religious and self righteous thus the sledge approach by Jesus…

Someone afraid of the idea of God because their parents who performed some sort of religion where Gods name was used but treated them like animals thus misrepresenting the true God, i believe Jesus would treat with gentleness and care…
It still is important for us to come to the realization that we are still ALL imperfect people in need of forgiveness by a Great God. This world in general has so many human generated problems…as of a few years ago i learned that an estimated 80,000 kids a year in India are kidnapped and sold into slavery. The Bible represents the only worldview that addresses the cause of so much cultural ill: human depravity.

I never said that non believing parents cannot love their children. The Bible also addresses this clearly: All humankind was made in the image of God and God is both a God of justice and love. Parents therefore more often than not love their kids and treat them justly with discipline and praise.

This point still does not deal with the ills promoted in mankind…for example a tribe in i think South America determined that it to be a virtue to deceivingly befriend a person of a neighboring tribe just to turn on them and slay them w a machete. It is literally virtuous to perform such heinous treachery on a neighboring community member. The person who does this may love on his kids and joke around with them at dinner, then get up from the table, perform this heinous crime and wear a smile and a bloody shirt on the walk back home to his family. Is this right? Without a standard, i would ask you why not? But you might say that your standards say this is wrong…but if you are like me and raised in America that is highly influenced by Judeo Christian values, one of which is that murder is evil and another is to care for people, then of course your conscience will be formed around these cultural ideals as they identify w the Christian ethic promoted within.

The Bible says that sinfulness is defined by breaking the laws, statutes and precepts in that Bible. The Bible is self promoting bc there is no other way if this is really of God. And it confirms itself to be true with a historical Jesus who says that not one letter will be eradicated from the law until it is fulfilled…then history reveals a great mysterious zeal on the part of His followers that is specifically fueled by what they see in this man raised from the dead after he was brutally crucified on a Roman cross. What do we do with this? The fact about Jesus raising from the dead is not ever going to go away. The truth that God created us isnt either, nor the fact that we can be recreated or reborn if we choose to repent of our sins, and in humilty before God ask for forgiveness found when Jesus suffered on that cross in our place.


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #144

And what are YOU doing about it?

No it doesn’t. A secular Humanist worldview addresses human depravity by working on the problem of poverty, injustice and intolerance.

Great we agree on the entire Genus Homo were humankind.

The God of the OT surely wasn’t.

In today’s American secular society our laws, morals, ethics, and values are NOT based on the Bible. Culture and Society has raised to a higher level of morality, ethics, and values based on secular humanism of the Enlightment. On issue after issue, it is Bible thumping Christians who are an impediment to solving most of the problems of injustice, racism, intolerance.


(Greg) #145

I wholly beg to differ with this statement. Patrick please think this through- what is true basis that secular humanism seem to adhere to (some of which i agree and others not so much) If people of faith are such an impediment to the progress of your kind so righteous and holy in your own right, then your lack of true substance other than yourselves seems to give you license one day to develop a self formulated goal of doing exactly what the soviets did in their goal to eradicate religion in the name of humanism: terrorize, torture, and kill Christians in the 10s of thousands!

Your demeanor in this discourse is not surprizing to me because the seeming hatred toward me bleeding out through your words because i choose to follow a loving and yes, JUST and HOLY God can always be justified by one standard and one standard alone: you. Your anger at me can be justified. Your hatred of me can be justified. Your secular humanism group can change its ideals on a dime because you guys are your standard. Christians are called to love even their enemies and care for the oppressed even if it cost them. Can we change that ever? No, no, no…not in a hundred, thousamd or million years. My wife chose the verse for our wedding, “we love because He first loved us.” God is love. End of story and the story was no different in the OT. The OT prophets talked often about this exact same …treating people fairly with justice etc…these things the pharisees memorized but became trumped while they developed their own systematic belief system that gave them political clout and money in their pockets.

How are you and the worldview of virtuous treachery i described earlier about that South American tribe any different in how you substantiate your ethics? You are exactly the same. You are both self defined. Am i wrong?

Now do i squirm at the thought that God, in the OT called for destruction of a brutal evil empire? Yes i do…just as much as i squirm about any war such as the bombs on Japan that ceased it from warring against and murdering American teenagers for no reason other than they hated America… and just as much as i squirm about the idea that we destroyed ISIS boys who were unfortunately brainwashed to think that killing Americans would bring them a herem of virgins for wild sex in heaven.

We live in an ugly messed up world Patrick. There have never been “good ole days” The reason it is messed up (which you want to attribute to the idea of God) and i beg you to join me by seeing the problem starring back at us in the mirror! Mankind made the mess and i see abdolutely no alternative to the world imploding on itself unless we turn to an Authority that hates when people oppress each other, hates sexual exploitation, hates murder, hates lying, hates stealing, hates when people are treated unjustly, hates arrogance, hates unkindness, hates terror, and loves all of the opposite of those. And He still offers forgiveness. When i was made new, i immediately came to a place where i cared for those downtrodden and misteated. I also came to a place where i saw real evil when man seems justified to cause a baby in the womb of its mother to be sliced with a knife where that child feels the pain from the cuts and which ultimately stops the beating of the heart of that fellow human being. 90% of the time the act is performed for convenience sake on the part of the mother and father. The wrongfullness of the act aside, the mainstream acceptance of such must push the mentality of parents towards their children to them being an inconvenience too at times. I could never prove the corollation but sure see much more familial disfunction today than even 20 yrs ago.

The solution to our ills is not you or I or some humanistic cause. It is Jesus who bled and died on that cross on our behalf. When i looked there for the forgiveness of my sins that helped tarnish the world around me, i have been on a pathway of promoting that others find the same course in order to magnify the Only Good one, God Himself and to preserve the world around me.


(The Honest Skeptic) #146

What can be learned from this? (Eph. 4:15, Matt. 5:13-16, Col. 4:6)

I find it interesting that when I ask what size of sledgehammer, you go straight for the righteous anger of Jesus. Jesus displayed that anger, but he did not allow his followers to do so. Peter was even rebuked for defending Jesus at his arrest. What needs to be done is that we all need to mind our thoughts, words and actions to ensure that we are not those pharisees upon whom his anger was directed.

You suggest that if one does not know God, one cannot love. One can be loved, and show love, but not know God. But if one does not know God, is not showing love the way to get them to know God? See the verses above.

Finally, before suggesting that someone may have been hurt by the church (which happens far too often) wouldn’t it be better to have established some sort of meaningful relationship that warrants such a personal discussion?