Welcome Greg to the Forum

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #147

Your world might be ugly and messed up, but mine isn’t. I enjoy being alive in 2018 New Jersey. Sure we have our problems but I am hopeful that the next generation can work them out with science, reason, and human empathy. Please excuse me now as I live my life with purpose and meaning. I need to run to Staples and get more of my flyer’s “Time to Quit the Catholic Church” that I will be giving out at the local Churches on Sunday.

(Greg) #148

Yea…this forum may not be the greatest for showing truth in love. You shared verses w me…are you a Christian after all? Im a bit confused as some of your inputs seemed to downplay Christianity not support it yet u use Scripture to critique.

Anyway, i take the Scriptures very seriously. In the NT, the power for coming to know God, the greatest of all treasures is not flattery, free money, deceiving people toward a “blessing” or as Joel Osteen would put it, favor or your best life now or even wearing a big smile…rather it is respectfully sharing the gospel of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins…we are called to do so in love. In order to understand grace one must come to grips with understanding that we all miss the mark of Gods holy standard first, repent of these then ask for forgiveness. Do you disagree? You seem to know the scriptures a bit so i dont want to scripture bomb you with plenty of support in that.

I think you misunderstood my comment in response to the gentleman atheist. When i asked him how he, an atheist could believe that genocide is a monstrosity, i was not trying to unlovingly suggest that he is a dumbdumb so how could he know stuff…rather i was trying to respectfully point out that an atheist humanist declares alegiance to no ultimate source of truth, so how could he truely declare some act a monstrosity when there would be no standard to guide what a monstrosity really is. Does that make sense?

Lastly you are wrong about Christians not being permitted to be angry. If your child was molested by someone, you would be justifiably angry at them. Anger is not sin. Eph 4 26. Says to us that if we are angry, do not sin in that anger and do not let it fester overnight. Anger is clearly not sin. For the record, I have not been angry at you or towards the gentleman atheist…but i am a bit incensed when a person professes to know Christ and tries to promote the evolutionary worldview as Gods method of creating when this is not only scientifically unreasonable, unsupportable by Scripture, belittling of God, but also may one day trickle into the church that my three children attend one day that could encourage them into a direction of apostacy and away from Christ.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #149

@Michael_Callen is a Christian who does not affirm evolution. @patrick is an atheist.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #150

So you are angry with me. Deal with it. You have no right to hold anger against a brother, even if he is an Indian scientist who affirms evolution as he intently follows Jesus.

Moreover you speak falsehood over me. I hold a position supportable with Scripture. I do not hold an evolutionary worldview. And I could go on…

Deal with you anger. End it.

(The Honest Skeptic) #151

No forum is ever not an opportunity to speak the truth in love. I have gotten riled a few times here and spoken out in frustration. Everyone of those times I have apologized to the person I was speaking to so as to ensure that they were not offended. I wish I could say I cared as to your opinion regarding how my “inputs seemed to downplay Christianity”, but I do not.

(Greg) #152

First of all, i have not a predjudice bone in my body. Im a white guy whos best friend growing up was black and whose best friend today is also black. Ronald Jones and Joe Coates. My wife and i along with my parents have adopted international college students at UC to support, encourage and love them in a country far from their own. Both of our families adopted men from India. About a year ago i walked into a walmart and a chic fil a on the same day. Walmart had a greeter from India, a cashier from the ukraine and a plethora of beautiful skin colors all around. The chic fil a had a bunch of preppy white kids serving a lot of white customers. I told a friend that, no disrespect to chic fil a which i love, heaven will look a lot more like what i saw in walmart!

Got that?

On the evolution thing, whatever you believe in your mind which i still have not figured out about evolution, by your promoting even the methodology you believe that caused monkeys to become human via nature and maybe some of God WILL INEVITABLY be skewed by the sinful minds in earshot to belittle people they think are not quite as evolved. On top of this, i read the science you say supports evolution and scripture in reference to God and from this i remain highly concerned why such support when the evidence is not there in science and Scropture is definatively against…and i remain concerned about where people of influence are taking this before the church, the Bride of Christ.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #153

3 posts were split to a new topic: How Far Back Goes Big Bang Science?

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #154

You are extremely prejudiced against me (1) about my honest view of Scripture, and (2) for honesty about what I’ve seen in science. You are prejudiced. What you call promoting is mere honestly. You are insisting that I remain silent or lie. I am not willing.

There is zero indication of:

  1. what you have read
  2. that you have understood what you have read
  3. that you are responding to it honestly and fairly.

Here is what, in contrast with you, a YEC scholar of Biblical Hebrew and theology says. This shows honest engagement with proposal I put forward on how to make sense of Adam and evolution:

Listen to your YEC scholars. Treat with me with the same respect and open-mindedness as them. Your ignorant posturing does not honor the careful thoughtfulness I see in so many YEC scholars and pastors. Get your act together, and stop being so disrespectful.

You have no right to treat a brother in Christ this way. You need not agree with me, but try to understand the first thing about that which you reject.

(Greg) #155

Iam not predjudice against you. You were Created in the image of God. You are loved by the same God who loves the WORLD. Christ, through who and for whom all of creation was made died for you and died for me. I am not predjudice against you.

But you are just a man who has ideas. i dont believe or buy your ideas about us evolving from apes and i dont see this in line w science or scripture…you are free to believe what you will but i find agreement with Jesus’ apostles that any who say they are brother and promote ideas not becomming of Scripture are to be warned and cautioned about.

You seemed to have thrown a race card into this and you did not realize that my observation of a culture of evolution in this world has been an impotous to true grave predjudice against my very own friends. I look into their faces and want to throw up in my mouth that some believe they are closer to the monkeys instead of being CREATED in the image of God like I.

I am not a lutheren and dont understand pre adamic theology coming from someone in the young earth camp…young earth proponents accept the literal historical Adam’s wife, Eve, being the literal mother of all of the living. How can there be pre-adamic history in a young earth perspective? Thats an oxymoron in my mind. Beyond that, some current Luthern theology is left wanting. For this reason many great denominations broke from the Luthern tradition to what many theologians consider better more Christ honoring theology.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #156

Saying that I am an Indian is not playing the race card.

I am instead asking you to act like a follower of Jesus.

You have no right to be angry with me. You have no right to repeatedly misrepresent me. You have no right to be indignant.

Slow down, apologize, and start listening. We can go slow. I’ll give you something to read. You read it. Then carefully explain to me your objections, without posturing.

(Neil Rickert) #157

You, too, are just a man who has ideas.

I have patiently explained to you why I believe that your criticism of evolution is mistaken. I did not expect you to accept evolution. But I did hope that you would at least attempt to understand why we disagree with your criticism.

And for all that, you questioned my assertion that I was a Christian at an earlier time in my life. That was disrespectful.

There are better ways of engaging in online discussions.

(Greg) #158

Well truth in love does not mean that people are not going to be offended. Scripture says those who represent Christ and his gospel are like an aroma of DEATH to those not saved (2 cor2 :15,16). People will not be happy when we call them sinners in need of a savior. The atheist gentleman sure found offense. Thats ok. My prayer is that God will make that seed grow. I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power unto salvation. Romans 1 :16

Oh and him perhaps not liking me too much…i am a big boy and God loves me so no need for a shrink here. So when you seemed to defend him instead of a person sharing the explicit gospel to him while i notice the title next to your name as a “skeptic” this became confusing so i am sorry that i misunderstood your stance in this whole discourse.

If you think im wrong and you value scripture as ultimate, take a look at 2 cor ch 11 about the true form of ministry. Paul calls out the “super apostles” who would add some form of worldly enticement into the gospel and they not only gained a large following, but also criticized paul. A good example of a modern day super apostle would be a pastor of the largest church in the us. I have heard some good but a lot of unbiblical oprah out of his mouth. Paul argues against these superapostles and in defense of his gospel ministry not to save face but to defend the message from the messenger: the gospel. This is a fascinating study if interested. In this, one can understand what a true apostle, spokeman for God is…in Pauls case, He saw Jesus face to face. This means that apostolic authority is over and the Bible is a closed document where the cornerstone is Christ saves sinners so that no man may boast. Anyway, you can munch on this good stuff! Prob no need to continue this conversation unless you have something pressing. It seems that God put a burr under my saddle to speak in settings like this from time to time and perhaps my time better to get back to full dedication to my work duties in my small business.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #159

I’m not offended @greg. You revealed you are incensed with me. I’m asking you act in love instead of stubbornness.

I understand this is likely offending you. I mean you no disrespect, and hope you will eventually turn from this someday. You are always welcome back. I hold no anger or grudge against you.

(The Honest Skeptic) #160

You truly have all of the answers, everything to share, and nothing to learn! Certainly something that we can all aspire to! Thanks, kindly, for another very important lesson!!

(Greg) #161

l[quote=“Michael_Callen, post:160, topic:1199, full:true”]
You truly have all of the answers, everything to share, and nothing to learn! Certainly something that we can all aspire to! Thanks, kindly, for another very important lesson!!

Well i dont have all of the answers. That is why i read read read- mainly Scripture and many solid theological perspectives. Remember that it is not i that suggest that anger is sinful when it is not and it is not i that proposes that common decent evolution is true when it is unwarranted by Scripture. I dont have all of the answers but God does and i dont know a better place than Scripture for His opinion.

So far in our discussions you have insinuated that i am unloving to suggest to an atheist friend that he has to graple with what to do with mankind’s sin nature and need of forgiveness. But Scripture clearly outlines with clarity that kind hearted truthful WORDS pertaining to a gospel that saves us from our SINS is the power unto salvation. This is not unloving sir.

You have also insinuated that im angry where i have demonstrated to this atheist gentleman (if he is really abiding by this label and not a concoction) that secular humanism holds no answers because truth being based on subjective feelings could lead to things like secular USSR slaughtering thousands of Christians to rid society of anything religious and not bat an eye as to it being wrong. Well im not angry at this atheist…for him if there is no bedrock truth he considers and just subjective feeling, then the sinfulness of sin can never be realized thus no sense about grace thus no salvation.

And then quite mistakenly you suggest i’m in sin for being incensed about a great experiment is put on by this website where it seems clear that the attempt IS NOT to consider ideas that perhaps Eve was indeed the mother of ALL life as clearly written in Scripture or that toying with evolutionary philosophies does damage to the Christian worldview or that according to the Bible being incensed over theological sway from prophets and apostolic teaching is completely justifiable!

It is as if many of the people involved in these discussions that carry a certain label such as you the “skeptic” are acting out a part to manufacture a script that strategically dismantles Scriptural premise held by guys like Kurt Wise, or Al Mohler who stand much more in line with Paul and Peter the apostles. Where are those persons in these discussions? Am i the only one who stumbled on this website by a fluke?

(The Honest Skeptic) #162

Please do not call me out by name any longer, as I do not wish to engage in conversation with you.

Thank you

(Daniel Ang) #163

This is false. Josh has reached out to people who are Young Earth Creationists. He has explored scientific models where Adam and Eve were the sole ancestors of all currently living humans today. What you say here is falsehood. There are few other places on the Internet where there is such interesting and open dialogue between people of different beliefs about Genesis.

(Greg) #164

Dear Sir: well i said “it seems” this was not proposed as fact but as a hypothesis.
Here is the reason: evolutionary scientists like Josh are literally unwilling to entertain ID science which are typically old earth creationists. I know this because josh said so…i can show you. There is really great science out from ID that really dismantles the idea of theistic evolution and as i have pointed these items out, Josh remains steadfast in a form of science that relies on naturalism for determination of complex life and not direct intervention from our Maker. Josh does not want to be labled an evolutionist, but every indication including his apprehensiveness to show any allegiance to ID that is so reprehensible to the world of mainstream naturalistic science seems to clearly define him as an evolutionist. That is my honest opinion.

So when you suggest to me that Josh was truly interested to learn science from not ID, not even old earthers, but young earth creationsts, i am sorry to sound judgmental, but i could imagine setting up the meeting to discuss the young earth view of post adam family tree for an appearance of open mindedness while eyes rolling and wristwatch viewing hoping the meeting over soon and to move on to better things.

My prediction is that one day when Christians go to heaven and meet their Maker, many are going to be FLOORED in humility when they come to realize that the science they put so much hope in on earth was incapable of realizing what God actually did…i have a hunch that there is a possibilty that men like kurt wise, a yek, may have been sitting on the moutaintop of true knowledge all along because he chose to trust revelation, the very thing that brought him Jesus, instead of his keen, but nonetheless frail human observational skills which are incapable of achieving heaven!

Im turning 50 next month…i prob have another 25 yrs but who knows. I am closer to my joy of meeting our Creator and will be very excited to get to heaven to come to realize how God really did this! I sure would not want to be the one who potentially discredit Scripture for my science while ushering a worldview where less not more people come to Christ!

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #165

Limiting myself merely to false statements made in reference to me or my beliefs.



For goodness sakes @Greg. I’m actually in friendly conversations with ID, OEC, and YEC scientists all the time, and I am not rolling my eyes at them.

I trust revelation too. Have you read what I wrote about wise?

@Greg please come back when you are ready to understand that which you reject.

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #166

Not true. ID is not science. It is creationism. Science is neutral on the question of a creator.