# Why cannot both Design and Descent be taught in science classes

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/why-cannot-both-design-and-descent-be-taught-in-science-classes/15198>\
**Category:** Conversation\
**Tags:** Science, Education, Society\
**Created:** [June 27, 2022, 2:22am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/why-cannot-both-design-and-descent-be-taught-in-science-classes/15198 "2022-06-27T02:22:11Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 1\
**Showing post:** 46

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**Author:** ![Meerkat\_SK5](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/meerkat_sk5/32/11938_2.png) [@Meerkat\_SK5](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Meerkat_SK5)\
**Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:56pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/why-cannot-both-design-and-descent-be-taught-in-science-classes/15198/46 "2022-06-30T15:56:08Z")

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I noticed from almost everyone’s last responses that we are really not getting anywhere with this topic. So I have decided to redo what I presented in the introduction to make sure we stay on the same page. In the process of doing this, I am hoping you guys will STOP strawing manning my case and STOP making responses that are not consistent with this topic.

More importantly, everyone who has claimed that my theory is unscientific or inherently violates the First Amendment will have the burden of proof to demonstrates this assertion. I am going to follow the scientific method that is described in wikipedia: [Scientific method - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method)

**Observation(s)**

(A) Quantum structure is in cognition

(B) Wave-function collapse depends on a causally disconnected choice

(C) The wave-function is real

(D) Since the wave-function is real, it’s also non-local

(E) The wave-function collapse is non-local

(F) The Similarities between Genomes and Natural languages

(G) The Appearance of Common Design

(H) Reproduction of the Common Design Patterns

(I) The Alleged design flaws that were found to be optimal

(THIS IS NOT A SYLOGISM )

**Formulation of a question**

Does all currently living organisms have a common design that can be traced back to a common designer?

#### Hypothesis

A Perfect Common Designer created and developed life on earth because a precursor consciousness _must_ exist to create life of any kind.

_Definitions_

Consciousness: Self-collapsing wave-function (i.e. creation of matter and energy)

Common Designer: A personal being who plans the form or structure of something before it is made and has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness.

Perfect: unchanging character and will

_What?_ A Self-collapsing Universal wave-function

_How?_ Proton-tunneling and quantum entanglement

_Why?_ Make sure basic types of organisms survive, reproduce, and fill the biosphere

_Where?_ Every mutation is directly and indirectly caused for a specific purpose

_When?_ From viruses leading up to humans and iongoing today

_Who_? Jesus Christ who is both Divine and human

_Null hypothesis_: Life is created and developed by purely unguided bottom-up processes

(A) Metabolism-first pre-biotic experiments did not produce a self-replicating molecule within a given environment

(B) The Lenski’s experiment did not produce the same positive result in his 11 other populations.

(C) The Lenski experiment did not produce speciation or an entire genome of information (i.e. tells the cell how to maintain information or how to pass it on to the next generation).

_Null hypothesis rejected_

**Universal Common Design Model**

Before the leftover meteorites were clumped together to form the primitive earth 3.8 billion years ago, virus-like RNA molecules were created within the deep-sea hypothermal vents of the earth. Then, some of these virus-like RNA molecules were naturally selected into different species of unicellular organisms and they underwent a heavy amount of HGT from the viruses that were created within the deep-sea oceans.

Then, the designer re-used these microbes, modules, and chemical constituents to separately construct basic types of animals from different locations and times around the globe. These basic types would be able to adapt to changing environments and diversify into kinds over long epochs of time.

This would involve the designer employing many familiar mechanisms, such as HGT, to facilitate this process and address a common set of problems facing unrelated organisms that are undergoing natural selection. As a result, we would see biochemical and morphological similarities among all living things that naturally give the appearance of Universal common ancestry.

_What are basic types_?

They are families and within each of these families contains different genera (such as, dog/fox/ wolf) and each genus contains one or more species.

This means that families are created (not genera or species) where there would be a basic type of dogs, which are the ancestor of all the different kinds of dogs that evolved afterwards. Therefore, discontinuities in the fossil record are considered families according to the common design model.

_How many groups of basic types are there_?

11+

_Which group of organisms are considered basic types_?

Avalon, Cambrian fauna, Ordovician, Nekton animals, Odontodes vertebrates, Land vertebrates, Insects, Dinosaurs/birds, Placental mammals, Genus Homo, and one Human pair.

_Why do shared similar ERV’s between species exhibit a nested hierarchy?_ (i.e. Teleology)

ERV sequences must resemble endogenized retroviruses in order to act as a defense mechanism against incoming harmful viruses.

_Why do shared similar pseudogenes between species exhibit a nested hierarchy_? (i.e. Teleology)

The ceRNA hypothesis elegantly explains the widespread existence of pseudogenes in genomes and their structural similarity to intact genes.

**Predictions**

(A) Family trees based on anatomical features will contradict family trees based on molecular similarities

(B) Many more examples of Functional pseudogenes and ERV’s will be found

(C) The rest of the non-coding regions of the DNA should reveal real sequencing differences between apes and humans as well as between other animal species based on how they are expressed in the regulatory genes rather than the genes that are present.

(D) Similar kinds from a basic type will have a common design that can be seen on a Linnaean Classification chart (i.e. hippos and whales). However, the differences between them will be due to the different design requirements that each need for their environment. The core of similarities starts at the Animal Kingdom and traces down into Mammalia.

(E) We will uncover optimal designs from alleged design flaws in nature

(F) The 14 other predictions from the Orch-OR theory of consciousness will be confirmed

**Theoretical Problems**

(A) Some predictions are unfalsifiable  
(B) Lacks a predictive model for morphological changes in the fossil record  
(C) Lacks an explanation for sequence similarities among close relatives  
(D) [Insert objection]

**Appendix** (alleged design flaws)

_Useless designs_

_Definition_: A design that no longer has a function.

[A wealth of discovery built on the Human Genome Project — by the numbers (nature.com)](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00314-6)

[Biofilms in the large bowel suggest an apparent function of the human vermiform appendix - ScienceDirect](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S002251930700416X?via%3Dihub)

[Global human mandibular variation reflects differences in agricultural and hunter-gatherer subsistence strategies | PNAS](https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/11/15/1113050108)

_Bad designs_

_Definition_: A design that appears to be poorly constructed to achieve a particular goal involving the survival and reproductive capabilities of that organism.

[Phys. Rev. Lett. 104, 158102 (2010) - Retinal Glial Cells Enhance Human Vision Acuity (aps.org)](https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.104.158102)

[Cellular survival over genomic perfection | Science (sciencemag.org)](https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6467/802.full)

[Case of coexisting, ipsilateral nonrecurrent and recurrent inferior laryngeal nerves | The Journal of Laryngology & Otology | Cambridge Core](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-laryngology-and-otology/article/abs/case-of-coexisting-ipsilateral-nonrecurrent-and-recurrent-inferior-laryngeal-nerves/0EB572C35DEE8D5120B17A5AA816FBB9)

[Perfect use of imperfection | Nature](https://www.nature.com/articles/35008165)

_Sinister designs_

_Definition_: A feature of an organism that is allegedly designed to impede on that organism or other organisms’ ability to survive, reproduce, and fit an environmental niche.

[Nociceptive Sensitization Reduces Predation Risk: Current Biology (cell.com)](https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(14)00335-2?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982214003352%3Fshowall%3Dtrue)

[Frontiers | Unconventional Care: Offspring Abandonment and Filial Cannibalism Can Function as Forms of Parental Care | Ecology and Evolution (frontiersin.org)](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2019.00113/full)

[Predators indirectly control vector-borne disease: linking predator–prey and host–pathogen models | Journal of The Royal Society Interface (royalsocietypublishing.org)](https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2009.0131)

[Elevated Extinction Rates as a Trigger for Diversification Rate Shifts: Early Amniotes as a Case Study | Scientific Reports (nature.com)](https://www.nature.com/articles/srep17104#Sec2)

[Biophysical feedbacks between the Pleistocene megafauna extinction and climate: The first human‐induced global warming? - Doughty - 2010 - Geophysical Research Letters - Wiley Online Library](https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1029/2010GL043985)

[Adaptive rewiring aggravates the effects of species loss in ecosystems | Nature Communications](https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9412#:~:text=Using%20a%20new%20modelling%20approach,which%20eventually%20causes%20extinction%20cascades.)

> [@Paul\_King](#):
>
> Well that is rather telling. Either you think that nobody will notice that your nonsense doesn’t belong in science classes or you think that nobody will object, or you assume that the objections will fail.

> [@Paul\_King](#):
>
> And in fact you are the one wanting to force your “culture” on others. Your ideas haven’t earned their place in the schoolroom. Nobody - other than you - wants them there.

Relax, I was merely pointing out why you cannot conflate “should not be taught” with “cannot be taught” in this topic. This means that the lack of scientific consensus does not support your objection on why they cannot be taught together.

On a side note though… Everything you just said above is not only believed by many creationists and ID proponents about the scientific community but they have accused them of doing the same thing you mentioned.

So you are going to have to prove that what you said here only applies to my position NOT simply assert it like you have been doing everytime.

> [@Dan\_Eastwood](#):
>
> It’s not the sample size, it’s a matter of curriculum. Quantum Mechanics is not a standard topic for middle/high school students because _very few_ children of that age can understand it.

No, this is your assumption. Again, how do you know it’s not the other way around where there are very few teachers that can understand it. In fact, let me show you what I found on the web:

'One of the biggest challenges to growing the camp and getting quantum information science (QSI) into high schools is the teachers.

It’s not that teachers are unwilling. They’re simply not trained. And the word “quantum” often elicits hesitancy, if not dread. That’s because the word “quantum” often carries with it the cultural idea – and misconception – that it is super complicated and incomprehensible.’

[High School students tackle quantum physics at summer camp (aisd.net)](https://www.aisd.net/district-news/quantum-physics-camp/)

> [@Dan\_Eastwood](#):
>
> Also a topic beyond middle and high school students.

Apparently, not anymore:

“She partnered with others to start Quantum for All, a project designed to help K-12 teachers and students understand how quantum mechanics is the basis for current and future jobs. The project, based at UTA and funded by the [National Science Foundation](https://www.nsf.gov/news/special_reports/announcements/080520.jsp), also lobbied the Texas Education Agency to add quantum mechanics to the state’s science requirements. Thanks to their efforts, quantum is getting added to the TEKS (Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills) in 2023.”

> [@Dan\_Eastwood](#):
>
> Third, it’s perfectly obvious there is no real science work being done in ID; there are no inventions, no new discoveries, no patents, no medical treatments, no real results from ID theory. There isn’t even a working theory of ID in the first place.

That’s not from what I read in this study:

“This realization solidifies the grounds for using modeling formalisms from these engineering subdisciplines to be applied to biological systems. While we document several examples where this is already happening, our goal is that identifying the cell as an embedded computing system would motivate and facilitate further discovery through more widespread use of the modeling formalisms described here.”

[Survey of Engineering Models for Systems Biology (hindawi.com)](https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cbj/2016/4106329/)

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