# YEC Atheists

**URL:** <https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868>\
**Category:** Conversation\
**Tags:** Atheism, Theology\
**Created:** [February 26, 2019, 5:05am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868 "2019-02-26T05:05:05Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 23, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/1 "2019-02-23T16:48:38Z")

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> [@Coyne: More criticisms of Behe’s new ID book](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/coyne-more-criticisms-of-behe-s-new-id-book/4664/13):
>
> Many atheists, including @Jerry_Coyne and perhaps @Patrick are YEC atheists. That is to say, the YEC version of Christianity is the one that they reject. Well, they probably reject other forms too, but the YEC version is the one that they most frequently criticize

That is exactly right. Are you watching @deuteroKJ and @Philosurfer?

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**Author:** ![Philosurfer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/philosurfer/32/911_2.png) [@Philosurfer](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/Philosurfer)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:05am UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/2 "2019-02-26T05:05:05Z")

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> [@Coyne: More criticisms of Behe’s new ID book](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/coyne-more-criticisms-of-behe-s-new-id-book/4664/15):
>
> That is exactly rigth. Are you watching @deuteroKJ and @Philosurfer?

@swamidass I’m watching, but not quite sure what you are driving at…?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/3 "2019-02-26T16:26:32Z")

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What do you think a YEC atheist is?

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/4 "2019-02-26T16:33:09Z")

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Seriously confused?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/5 "2019-02-26T16:47:56Z")

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> [@Coyne: More criticisms of Behe’s new ID book](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/coyne-more-criticisms-of-behe-s-new-id-book/4664/20):
>
> Seriously confused?

Perhaps. You might be a YEC atheist yourself!

> [@Coyne: More criticisms of Behe’s new ID book](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/coyne-more-criticisms-of-behe-s-new-id-book/4664/13):
>
> > Well, that’s an odd kind of question for Atheists to be asking.
> 
> Many atheists, including @Jerry_Coyne and perhaps @Patrick are YEC atheists. That is to say, the YEC version of Christianity is the one that they reject. Well, they probably reject other forms too, but the YEC version is the one that they most frequently criticize.

That is the interesting thing @deuteroKJ and @Philosurfer. They are atheists who adopt a YEC interpretation of Scripture. Why do you think they do this?

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:53pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/6 "2019-02-26T16:53:15Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> That is exactly rigth.

To be fair, Judeo-Christian religions are not the only game in town. Atheists don’t believe in any deities, including those found in traditions with an old Earth.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/7 "2019-02-26T16:59:15Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Why do you think they do this?

Because that’s what scripture actually says, and that’s how it’s been almost universally interpreted (with rare exceptions) up until a few hundred years ago? Interpretation has changed as a result of scientific discoveries, the first likely being the abandonment of the flat-roofed earth due to, I’m supposing, Hellenistic influence. Much later, we get abandonment of geocentrism, and a couple centuries after that, of 6-day, recent creation. Though of course there remain sizable remnants who retain these, the sizes negatively correlating with the age of scientific refutation. There are very few flat-earthers left, but geocentrism remains surprisingly popular. And YEC is widespread.

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**Author:** ![dga471](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/dga471/32/5233_2.png) [@dga471](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/dga471)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/8 "2019-02-26T17:13:45Z")

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It seems to me that hardcore atheists like to criticize both YEC fundamentalist Christians who distrust mainstream science and liberal Christians who subscribe to science but don’t believe in many tenets of traditional orthodox Christian theology (e.g. [Goff responds to my critique of “religious fictionalism”](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/goff-responds-to-my-critique-of-religious-fictionalism/4821)). However, they are just puzzled by those of us “in the middle” (such as Josh and Francis Collins) who affirm mainstream science but are earnestly serious about their beliefs in literal miracles and the Resurrection. They often try to box us into the fundamentalist framework (e.g. [Daniel Ang: A Scientist Looks at the Resurrection](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/daniel-ang-a-scientist-looks-at-the-resurrection/4554/148)) but it really doesn’t fit, as we’re able to speak the same scientific language (unlike fundamentalists), yet we also are able to coherently speak the language of theology.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/9 "2019-02-26T17:15:52Z")

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> [@dga471](#):
>
> coherently speak the language of theology

oxymoron

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/10 "2019-02-26T17:41:41Z")

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> [@dga471](#):
>
> However, they are just puzzled by those of us “in the middle” (such as Josh and Francis Collins) who affirm mainstream science but are earnestly serious about their beliefs in literal miracles and the Resurrection.

I’m not puzzled. I see nothing strange about someone applying seemingly contradictory epistemologies to different questions. It seems to be a common thing for humans to do.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/11 "2019-02-26T17:45:59Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> > coherently speak the language of theology
> 
> oxymoron

Maybe should change your title to YEC Atheist? You are playing the role perfectly. 😉

> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> > However, they are just puzzled by those of us “in the middle” (such as Josh and Francis Collins) who affirm mainstream science but are earnestly serious about their beliefs in literal miracles and the Resurrection.
> 
> I’m not puzzled. I see nothing strange about someone applying seemingly contradictory epistemologies to different questions. It seems to be a common thing for humans to do.

You aren’t a YEC atheist @T_aquaticus, but I’m not sure you are understanding where we are coming from. I don’t think @dga471 and I have two different epistemologies. We have a larger epistemology that _contains_ the scientific epistemology. One is just a coherent part of another larger whole.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/12 "2019-02-26T17:51:00Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Maybe should change your title to YEC Atheist?

Just going by my experience so far.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/13 "2019-02-26T17:54:16Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> I don’t think @dga471 and I have two different epistemologies. We have a larger epistemology that _contains_ the scientific epistemology. One is just one coherent part of a larger whole.

The situation I am referringto is where one demands repeatable observations for one conclusion (science) but not for another (theology). At least in my view, there is a difference in the requirements for belief in science and in theology.

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**Author:** ![r\_speir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@r\_speir](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/r_speir)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/14 "2019-02-26T18:02:01Z")

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I’ll be a troll for a moment. Atheists don’t really get it. They do not realize that they cannot just ‘disbelieve in God’ and the matter is settled. They must utterly eliminate his very possibility. They _must_ do this or they have no argument. Actually, theists do not even have to debate them about God’s existence. Since atheists must eliminate every possible trace of God, and since they will never be able to accomplish it, their argument is already defeated before it starts. Here is one of the most powerful statements about God’s existence and the statement that atheists will never rise above - “Truly you are a God who hides himself”. The fearful thing for the atheist is that even if it were possible to silence all of nature’s witness to God, there would always remain the possibility that he was simply hiding from them.

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:11pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/15 "2019-02-26T18:11:58Z")

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> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> Atheists don’t really get it.

I will have to admit that I don’t get that post. It seems incoherent to me. Perhaps some theist who understands your point will explain.

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/16 "2019-02-26T18:14:46Z")

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@John_Harshman, this is a Wiggensteins Lion situation ([Wittgenstein's Lion Seeking Peace](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/wittgensteins-lion-seeking-peace/2265)). I understand both where you and @r_speir are coming form, and you are both internally coherent. You are both speaking english. Your frames of reference are so different you are talking past each other.

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**Author:** ![T\_aquaticus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/t_aquaticus/32/1249_2.png) [@T\_aquaticus](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/T_aquaticus)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/17 "2019-02-26T18:16:16Z")

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> [@r\_speir](#):
>
> I’ll be a troll for a moment. Atheists don’t really get it. They do not realize that they cannot just ‘disbelieve in God’ and the matter is settled. They must utterly eliminate his very possibility. They _must_ do this or they have no argument.

Atheists view this a bit differently.

It isn’t up to skeptics to disprove a claim. It is up to the claimant to evidence the claim.

> [@](#):
>
> Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.  
> –Bertrand Russell

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/18 "2019-02-26T18:17:06Z")

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> [@T\_aquaticus](#):
>
> It isn’t up to skeptics to disprove a claim. It is up to the claimant to evidence the claim.

Except there is thing called “proper basic belief”…

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**Author:** ![John\_Harshman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/john_harshman/32/1121_2.png) [@John\_Harshman](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/John_Harshman)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/19 "2019-02-26T18:18:27Z")

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> [@swamidass](#):
>
> Your frames of reference are so different you are talking past each other.

Perhaps someone can bridge that gap. Not you, apparently? Is discourse truly impossible?

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**Author:** ![swamidass](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.peacefulscience.org/swamidass/32/3_2.png) [@swamidass](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/u/swamidass)\
**Post date:** [February 26, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868/20 "2019-02-26T18:21:15Z")

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> [@John\_Harshman](#):
>
> > Your frames of reference are so different you are talking past each other.
> 
> Perhaps someone can bridge that gap. Not you, apparently? Is discourse truly impossible?

“If a lion could speak, we would not understand him.”

I can’t bridge the gap for you. You have to be willing to “try on” a different perspective, and see things from a different point of view. Trust that @r_speir is honest, coherent, and doing his best to make sense of things, even if you (in the end) really do disagree with him. If you can understand the internal logic of his view, you can bridge that gap.

Same goes the other way around for @r_speir with you.

It seems first and second generation immigrants like @dga471 and I do this naturally. We have an advantage here.

[Next page](https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/yec-atheists/4868.md?page=2)