No, it doesn’t reveal that at all, you’re simply making it up.
God supposedly instructs humans not to commit adultery in the 10 commandments, but I’m just not sure that applies to squid, or flowering plants. Change my mind!
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I think you know I am talking about created separate “kinds” by the Creator at the beginning of life, so whatever you have done to that meaning to turn it on its head is a mystery to me. You need to explain your statement if you want it to make sense. Only then we can see what you are up to, so to speak.
Looking quickly, it’s inferred from God cursing all the ground because of Adam’s sin, Romans 5
and Romans 8 - maybe more passages, these are what’s coming to mind at the moment.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the [e]offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many [f]offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s [g]offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 8
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
1 Corinthians 15
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him, ” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.\
Which statement in Genesis?
Perhaps because I come from a Calvinist background I read these passage much differently. His death is applied to all those who believe in him. So it doesn’t apply to those who don’t.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
Notice the reference to Hosea 13, emphasis here is on the grave - physical death.
“I will ransom them from the [i]power of [j]the grave;
I will redeem them from death.
O Death, [k]I will be your plagues!
O [l]Grave, [m]I will be your destruction!
Pity is hidden from My eyes.”
Another translation:
I shall ransom them from the power of Sheol;
I shall redeem them from Death.[c]
O Death, where are your plagues?
O Sheol, where is your sting?
Compassion is hidden from my eyes.
If you would say that Sheol is Hell, then what is Death? Well than that has to be physical death. The verses have Christ defeating both physical and spiritual death.
Plant decay and animal and human death are different things. Plants do not have a soul or spirit. Also the animals would have evolved after they were subject to corruption as well to adapt to an environment that included death.
A picture of eternal life without death is not “doing nothing.”
Isaiah 11
The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
and a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.
9 They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.
Decay. Only plants not animals as food. See my reply to @Rumraket
What’s the problem here?
The effect of eating the fruit was to give the man knowledge of good and evil, period. The punishment was laid on separately and intentionally. The man was not immortal, as he had not eaten from the tree of life, and it was to prevent this that he was expelled from Eden. That’s what the story says, and it contradicts your reading on all those points.
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How can you have a functioning ecology without animal death? You still haven’t thought it through. Simple example, even birds that eat mostly plants have to feed their young on insects, because they need more protein than a plant diet can easily provide. Maybe you’re going to say that insects aren’t animals and don’t have spirits? If so, the natural world just keeps getting smaller and smaller. Anyway, how could a lion survive on straw? Lions can’t digest cellulose, lacking the multi-chamber stomach full of cellulose-digesting bacteria and protists.
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How did carnivorous plants like the Venus flytrap survive?
Is there a Bible verse that says plants do not have souls or spirits?
It seems odd that all the animals with limbs and adaptations clearly tailored for hunting and eating prey, would be living off plants and then happen to become “corrupted” in just the right way for them to start living as predators.
That verse seems to be depicting events to come, not what it was like before Adam’s sin?
It also contradicts pretty much every word of Christian theology from the past 2000 years. Yet the meaning of the text is not even ambiguous or open to interpretation.
I really don’t understand how this happens. I think I’ll start a new thread on this.
That’s just false. Don’t equate YEC with historical theology. They are an outlier. You might benefit from reading @jongarvey’s book God’s Good Earth.
God pronounced the consequences of the act on man’s creative works in the world separately from the immediate knowledge of evil. That doesn’t mean they weren’t related.
He was not immortal in the sense of having eternal life, but this didn’t mean he wasn’t in a state of physical death. My understanding is that if he had taken the fruit of the tree of life he would have been in a state that subjected his body to evil (death) permanently. Then redemption wouldn’t be possible. It would be similar to the fallen angels who became devils as a result of rebellion. But I do need to study what Christian thought on this has been and whether he would have already eaten of the tree of life or not. I grew up with a different position on this state in the garden then what I have now.
There wasn’t a position on the age of the earth before modern times. What are you referring to? Physical death only after sin? Admittedly I haven’t studied this historically but you’ll have to point to someone discussing all positions so I can get a sense for this.
The adaptations we see in the fossil record had a few millennia to develop.
Yes. But a world of life without death would be much the same as eternal life without sin. In both the consequences of sin aren’t present.
They’ve evolved that ability. How Plants Evolved into Carnivores | Scientific American
And that happened in the last 6000 years? Because of The Fall?
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Thanks for your thoughtful reply, I appreciate the effort.
I still see Romans 5-8 a commentary on spiritual death and freedom from sin through Jesus. I do not see it as a commentary on Adam being the “head of creation” and the beginning of death in the world. It seems clear to me that:
- Sin brings forth death, but
- Death does not require sin (vs. 14 - death reigned even over those who had not sinned)
- Therefore Adam brought sin, which brings forth death, but death already existed as evidenced by God referencing death in Gen 2:17 before the fall (below).
Genesis 1 has plants with seed (that must die to make more plants as referenced in John 12:24 and 1 Cor 15:36) in the third day and birds and fish and animals in the fifth day, which in order to be fruitful and multiply as God commanded, must have eaten each other to survive and so death existed before man.
Genesis 2:17 - but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you[f] shall surely die.”
Genesis 3:22 - Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
Agreed…
Romans 6:9 - knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
Revelation 1:18 - I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of [a]Hades and of Death.
However…the fact that Jesus has power over death does not mean that he will abolish death and bring all out of death…it means He is the judge that determines whether you have eternal spiritual death, or eternal life.
In other words, Jesus will not physically resurrect people that have died to be with Him in heaven, which is not earthly, so the power over the grave is spiritual and eternal, not physical.
This is an interesting discussion for me, and gives me a lot of insight into your viewpoint, thanks.
Uhhhhhh…so plant life evolved but animal/human life didn’t…seems like a contradiction.
In multicellular eukaryotes, perhaps. But further back, with the mitochondria and plastids…
You will note that the fruit confers knowledge of good and evil, not just evil, and it gives the man the same knowledge that God has. And the relationship between the fruit and the curse is that the man eating the fruit is what induces God to lay a curse on him. That’s all. Any other connection is something you made up, but it isn’t in the story.
I believe one can recognize a state of physical death fairly easily; dead people don’t move much. You must mean something else than what the words say.
Your understanding contradicts the text, which says he will live forever if he eats the fruit. Once again you are making up things that aren’t in the story.
Not if you follow the YEC time scale. The fossil record comes from the Flood, which was only around 1500 years after creation.
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