AJ Roberts: One of The Biggest Questions

[Patrick]

I read [the original post] twice. I am failing to make a connection as to what problem in evolutionary biology are you trying to solve. Can you please articulate what the problem is in the science and what are your propose solution. Are you trying to better define what constitutes a species/genus/order? And for what reason? Why is it so important to precisely define each category in Linnaeus taxonomy? What will that do for evolutionary biology?

[Patrick]

@AJRoberts

If organisms are capable of biological reproduction then they should not be reclassified as separate species, and then obviously of the same lineage and same kind.

How would you handle the several Neanderthal/Sapiens/Denosivan localized breeding events of the past 40,000 years?

And then, once admixture at 40,000 years ago is explained, go back to say 500,000 years, then 1 million years and figure out all those unknown breeding events between numerous unknown and known species or kinds of hominids that left their mark differently on the genomes of all people living today.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

@Patrick

I read [ the original post ] twice. I am failing to make a connection as to what problem in evolutionary biology are you trying to solve. Can you please articulate what the problem is in the science and what are your propose solution. Are you trying to better define what constitutes a species/genus/order? And for what reason? Why is it so important to precisely define each category in Linnaeus taxonomy? What will that do for evolutionary biology?

Do you know what Baraminology is in YEC? Created kind - Wikipedia @AJRoberts is suggesting doing something similar in OEC. The idea is to discern the boundaries between created kinds. I think it is a very challenging thing to do with many pitfalls. You’ve already put your finger on one:

@Patrick

How would you handle the several Neanderthal/Sapiens/Denosivan localized breeding events of the past 40,000 years?

For example there is that. But perhaps more fundamentally the effort can be self defeating too.

@swamidass

This also is one of the pitfalls of baraminology. There is no clear boundaries between kind. Therefore there will be always be disagreement between baraminologists about where the clear boundaries really are. The argument itself ultimately demonstrates that there are no clear boundaries. So the endeavor becomes self-defeating, even as it begs the question. Not a good direction. It is a sure recipe for failure.

Honestly, I am not sure how to overcome that on a sociological level. If there are limits to evolution, they are not clear. So there may always be disagreement among OECs regarding them, which then undermines the claim that their are clear lines. It might even lead to the situation we are seeing in YEC, where Kurt Wise denies evolution, but proposed that whales evolved (by natural processes) from land animals.

@swamidass

With all this evidence (DNA and fossil) for the common descent of whales, even some young earth creationists (yup, that’s right!) have come to accept this as a clear example of evolution. Some wonder if walking whales were on the Ark, and think 4,000 years was enough time for them all to evolve. Says Dr. Kurt Wise,

“…some of the animals which are aquatic or marine today may not have been aquatic at the time of the Flood. The marine and sea otters, for example, are members of the mustelid (weasel) family and their aquatic character is likely to have been revealed after the Flood. The whales might turn out to be another example… Vestigial legs and hips in modern whales confirm legged ancestors of the whales existed only a short time ago. It is possible that the purely marine cetaceans of the present were derived from semi-aquatic or even terrestrial ancestors on the ark .” https://thenaturalhistorian.com/2017/10/05/walking-whales-on-board-noahs-ark-the-inevitable-end-point-of-creationists-post-flood-hyper-speciation-belief/

We have to commend Dr. Wise for following the evidence here. However, I think this process still needs a few million years to take place. 4,000 years is not enough.

OEC and RTB is a different beast than YEC. So it is possible they might be able to navigate it. However, their tent includes everyone from @Guy_Coe (who affirms common descent) to Hugh Ross (who appears to deny most speciation). I’m not sure how it is possible to settle that range of views.