Brian Miller: Co-option and Irreducible Complexity


(Greg) #361

The brilliance of design in feathers and hollow bones for flight and you reduce them as being a blanky to keep warm on cold nights and a headress to attract the cutey around the path?..and access to such that just so happened to be corrolated w the animal learning to fly. Are you familiar with the intracacies of design embedded into a single feather? Do you realize the momumental genetic alterations between scales and feathers…all by natural selection of RANDOM MUTATIONS. Cmon man!

(Timothy Horton) #362

You didn’t even bother to look at those papers on dino-to-bird evolution I provided for you, did you? Do you really wonder why people consider you not worth responding to?

(Curtis Henderson) #363

@Greg has made it perfectly clear that to him, there is no acceptable evidence for anything that contradicts massive special creation roughly 6,000 years ago. He will continue to reject any scientific evidence inconsistent with this view, but will latch on to any untested hypothesis that supports it. To him, this position is a mark of piety, so he wears it as a badge of honor. Discussion is virtually pointless.

(Timothy Horton) #364

I know but I’m fascinated by the paleontology and could discuss it for hours. There’s also the lurkers who may read and learn even if Greg doesn’t. Plus there’s always the chance the horse may learn to sing. :slight_smile:

(Curtis Henderson) #365

Fair enough, you just sounded disappointed (and possibly surprised) that he hadn’t checked into the references you provided.

(Timothy Horton) #366

Not, not surprised. I’ve dealt with Fundy Creationists enough to know the game.

  1. They demand evidence for evolution
  2. You provide evidence
  3. They don’t bother to even look, keep making the same dumb claims.

I do it because I love the science, not that they ever do.

(Greg) #367

I dont latch onto a position as a badge of honor. I latch onto a God whom i love whom i am 100% dependent upon the Bible and no other in order to define who He is and understand what He does and how He does it. And you know what? I have seen the God of Scripture act. As i have trusted Him at His Word, I have witnessed Him in His power. And i have come to a place of disdain for religion as usual to replaced with a paradigm encapsulated with this Bible verse : This is eternal life, that they know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you’ve sent. Religion says do say 10 hail marys, or carry a lucky rabbits foot or trust in any other concoction man can come up with to give Him comfort. Christianity says know God by hearing what He says of Himself and what promises he makes and trust. Religion is a placebo. Relationship with the true God will reveal itself in power coming from He.

You think God would never deceive us with a scientific outcome that runs contrary to the way things really are. God does not deceive. But the description He gives of Himself of a God who creates matter and energy out of nothing and a God who transcends and a God whose ways are not our ways, and a God who tells us faith in Him at His Word should always trump trust in the observations of man. These themes run through all of Scripture. So for the smart scientist the question becomes “Do i trust the eyes of the smart scientist that contradict the most basic understanding of prophecy, or do I trust God at His Word at the expense of mistrusting the eyes of the smart scientist?” And of those wise in their own eyes like that scientist, does Scripture say to them in principle that this is great, trust what you see. Or does Scripture suggest that it is going to take an extra measure of a gut punch of grace to bring a person wise in his own eyes to his knees in humility before a great and powerful God who loves all people. The latter!

In Luke 14, Jesus speaks of a wedding feast. He speaks of a guest confident of himself who sits at a place of honor without invitation to do so and when a guest more distiguished shows, the self confident guest now embrassasingly must move out of that seat and to one of lesser account before all of the wedding guests. Jesus concludes with the statement,“For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled and everyone who humbles himself will be exalted.” In the mind of the arrogant man in this story, it seemed in his mind appropriate to take the place of honor and he was wrong. He had received no such invitation and in his pride chose wrongly and he was humbled. God’s word has invited us all to know God with clear instructions on the wedding invitation called His Word. Scientist and biology teacher cwhenderson tells me that there are clear instructions elsewhere on an explanation by a man to describe how a dino evolved into a bird that clearly runs contrary to the language of the prophet Moses about how the bird kind was created out from nothing. And other evolutionists who partially tied to Christian forms have literally written language about salvation fitting of the neo darwinian evolutionary paradigm that salvation is a matter of escalation of righteousness into salvation where Scripture says the exact opposite- that we are saved by grace through faith for God to re-create us into new creations in Christ. This two parted man made picture is telling. And cwhenderson giving a sab story of how Timothy Horton must feel badly that greg did not read his article about dino/bird evolution…This really pulls my heartstrings cw but its a little difficult to trust what is being said when you defame me by pitifully judging my heart and suggesting that i make a POSITION consisting of mere words my badge of honor like im a gnostic. You are so wrong in every way about this judgement about a persons heart which you have no right to give. I love God. I love people. Love delights in truth (1 cor 13) And i turn to Scripture for truth not Tim Horton’s article or Timothy Horton himself whose language consisting of bitter profanity towards Bill Cole who seems like a very kind hearted Christian and others and who is not even willing to reveal his real name, what his theological position is or what he is about minus the slips of his tongue. It is exchanges like this as well as the double whammy ludicrous pseudo science in naturalistic neo darwinianism (which science fraudulently says is scientific bc it is naturalistic) that also runs contrary to Scripture as the second part of the whammy that cause me to become even more sure and trusting of God at His Word. Slander me and kick me to the curb. I dont care. I trust Him and i take it to my grave after which i will see the greastest of all prizes in He!

(Mikkel R.) #368

Could this be preventing you from accepting evidence against the existence of God? Or at least evidence against your interpretation of scripture?

(Mikkel R.) #369

If God exists, then he has done exactly that. All the evidence points to life having evolved over billions of years and the common descent of all species. If God created life, he has planted evidence that says otherwise.

(Curtis Henderson) #370

Greg, have you considered the possibility that this could also refer to those that assume a position of spiritual superiority over fellow brothers and sisters in Christ that might have a different interpretation of a passage of scripture?

I have criticized you, but I have not slandered you. Slander would require me to have made a false statement.

Signing off this thread before I derail it too badly.

(Greg) #371

Well first, i am ok w the idea that God planted “kinds” that micro evolve. That i find acceptable to Scripture and science. Your version of universal common decent via the natural causes alone (or mainly via natural causes) is completely off the charts anti Scripture and anti rational. An atheist cannot explain the beginning of our universe with anything out of a rational handbag. Same can be said about trying to explain natural causes giving a beating heart, a thinking brain and seeing eyes. I have seen the attempts, but all i sense in these attempts is the faith out fr the church of darwin forcing evidence into a prior held naturalistic belief system.

On the issue of calling God deceptive, in Scripture in Dt 13 speaks of God’s seriousness of abiding by the words of His prophet Moses. Moses was an apprehensive prophet who was a fearful public speaker. He wanted Joshua to speak on his behalf as Moses heard from God. One does not get the impression that Moses is a charismatic cult leader, but rather a conduit that God assigned as His spokesman.

With that said, looking in this chapter, God allows for the potential of signs and wonders to be produced by false prophets who went against Moses. And God said to his people to not believe the false prophet as this is a test to see if the Israelites were willing to love God and obey His commands. To you this may make the idea of the God of Scripture a deceiver. To me this does in no way make Him a deceiver as He clearly makes Himself known via prophecies given to Moses and not just in signs, but in incredible miraculous events that rescued the Israelites from the bondage of slavery. Are you familiar?
God is not a deceiver. Instead, we are deceivers of ourselves when we use the Words of prophecy as a mirror to our souls and we turn away from that mirror and forget. (Jms 1:22-25) The words of prophecy lead all the way through the gospel of Jesus, a miracle of all miracles that has turned the world inside out, my life included.

The only other mirror of our soul is the marvelous appearance of design in our universe. Planets rotating w precision. Plants and animals with complex bio parts so intricate. The fact that we are living, breathing creatures! Ro 1 says these things also serve as a mirror to our souls about the fact that we are created by God and are without excuse to deny Him at His Word. In fact, Ro 1 says that ALL people know that God exists because they see a creation and therefore are without excuse. Naturalistic evolutionism is as if the evil brush of a great enemy who tries to paint strokes of deceit into the fabric of human thinking in order to numb the sense of the existence of our very real God. That is why i am dumbfounded to see folks claiming faith in God siding more with the fruits of an atheistic camp called evolutionism and less from the Genesis account, the very prophecy from Moses called creationism.

(Greg) #372

Yes. Our hearts are deceitfully wicked. We are idol factories. We can take something as good as love, the very description of God and twist it into an idol. We can make good theology an idol! Until one grapples with the reality that good Biblical theology is in reference to a very real God who is holy and beyond us but who loved the world so He sent His Son, then they can easily fall into a trap of worship of information.

I believe God exists. And i believe that He is so great in His essence that the wisdom of the world will be incapable of knowing all of His ways. There could be a dozen dimensions that we in our finite brains have no idea exist-right? To God, the earth is like dirt under His fingernails. Our intelligence compared to His has greater divide than the difference between ours and a protozoa. The smart scientist has a long way to go sometimes to humble himself into these biblically principled paradigms. Until he does so, he sure should not be a spokesman that sides w a picture more akin to naturslistic evolutionism and less Scripture.

(Timothy Horton) #373

It’s not His intelligence which is being examined here. It’s yours.

You think because staying scientifically ignorant makes you happy everyone else should stay scientifically ignorant too? Sorry Greg but most of us like to explore and learn about the world we live in. Knowledge doesn’t threaten or frighten us like it does you.

(Greg) #374

Gotcha. I encourage you to explore thru the lense of the greatest scientific enigma to date: the universe had a beginning. This suggests that something outside of the natural that has no beginning must be the Cause. That happens to be exactly in line with descriptions of the God I believe in as defined in a book called the Bible. The presence of this Cause whom i believe to be God of the Bible makes the seeking of knowledge as it reflects and is subjected to His reality a joy. That is why i have 16 or 17 books sitting on my nightstand. Im putting ps down for the weekend. Nice superbowl weekend sir.

(Timothy Horton) #375

Sorry Greg but the Bible isn’t a science textbook. It’s people like you who try to make it into a science text who end up degrading and defacing the actual message the Bible contains.

(Greg) #376

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

(Mikkel R.) #377

Suppose this is true, that it is impossible for something to create itself. Why does that make you think God created it?

(Mikkel R.) #378

Why do you think matter and energy was created, and why do you think it was a “who” that did it?

(George) #379


So, do you have any remorse about coming to a Christian blog site, to disagree with Christians who want to promote a Christian God-Centered view of Evolution … and to pick fights with Atheists as well?

Is that really a good use of your time? I’m going to hazard the wild guess that it is not a good use of everyone else’s time…

(Mikkel R.) #380

I concur with the tacit admission that church faith is an irrational move that cannot be used to logically support any belief.