Let’s look at the context. Proto-Isaiah is largely concerned with the coming Assyrian invasion, not with any event long in the future, especially in chaps. 8–10. As Tim pointed out, the child “was born,” not “is born.” The king here is therefore almost certainly Hezekiah. Sure, he’s called el-gibbor, but so are the human leaders of the other nations (Ezekiel 32:21). Also note that Yahweh is clearly distinguished from the king; according to Isa. 9:7, “it is the zeal of Yahweh of armies that will accomplish” the king’s birth.
The prophet here might indeed be a future Messiah, but this verse obviously doesn’t imply that the prophet will be God. On the contrary, Yahweh is clearly distinguished from the prophet.
I know your main point was about the Old Testament, but are you saying that John 10:30 is a claim to be God? Why do you think that?
Have you read James D. G. Dunn’s Christology in the Making? He discusses why this passage is likely an example of Adam Christology, not implying that Jesus was a supernatural being prior to his birth. But if all you’re saying is that the NT claims Jesus is divine in some way, then you’re definitely right.
Hi Tim
The problem the skeptics have the the overall picture. There are many hyperlinks such as the one I showed. There is a strong Messianic theme to Isaiah which links to the New Testament.
The bottom line is you cannot analyze Isaiah 9 6 in isolation. There are many Jew’s that accept 9 6 as messianic. This is the growing culture of Messianic Jews in Israel.
I wasn’t. Isaiah 9:6 is written in the context of Isaiah 9, which talks about such things as “the day of Midian’s defeat”, it does not give any indication of being a prophesy.
Hyperlinks aren’t evidence.
Possibly, if you take the original meaning of “messiah” as “anointed”, as in “anointed king” – which Hezekia was, but Jesus wasn’t.
Only in the minds of revisionist Christians.
As I have pointed out to you previously, religiously, Messianic Jews are Evangelical Christians, NOT Jews – so of course their interpretation follows Christian, not Jewish views of the OT. That you continually repeat such debunked garbage is one of the many reasons I have trouble taking your comments seriously.
And no, I won’t watch that video because, as I likewise said in that previous thread “I don’t watch random Youtube videos by random loons.”
Random loons? Bill’s loons are not random. They are carefully curated for the looniest, tooniest possible experience. In Canadian coinage terms they are like a two-million-loonie.
I wouldn’t claim that there is agreement that Jesus was a supernatural being prior to being resurrected.
Although, that really supports the main point I am making here - that we can’t take such claims as adequate reason to believe that Jesus even claimed to be a supernatural being, let alone God.
I am sure that the Jewish people appreciate your insights into their scripture just as much as the scientists here appreciate your insights into biology. Incidentally, the invitation to reopen that thread and show that you actually have a shred of intellectual respectability remains open:
You keep repeating this half-truth. As I pointed out to you before, many Messianic Jews are Gentiles.
Wikipedia cites this point to:
However, not all Messianic believers are Jews. Nothing is as problematic as the large numbers of Messianic Gentiles in the movement. To claim Jewish identity when one is not Jewish oneself adds another layer of struggle: “We are Jews!” “We are Messianic Jews!” “We are Messianic Gentiles/spiritual Jews!” [Messianic Judaism: A Rabbi’s Journey through Religious Change in America, Carol Harris-Shapiro, (1999), p15]
The group I cited is one of many Messianic Jewish movements and this is rapidly growing.
You have cited no reliable evidence for this growth, nor would such growth be relevant to this discussion.
More “convoluted” than claiming that Isaiah 9 is a prophecy? I doubt it. But regardless. you have provided no evidence to substantiate your claim.
Like so many times before, your argument stands on half-truths and unsubstantiated claims. This is why many of us are drawing your attention back to this thread, in an attempt to encourage you to provide more substance to your claims:
In this current instance, you have provided no substantive support for your original claim that “John’s testimony is supported by the Old Testament writings.”
There seems to be a very strong tendency, among poorly-educated people in this country, to think of Judaism as Christianity minus Jesus – as a sort of unfulfilled messianic cult with a Jesus-shaped hole in the middle of it. Ludicrous as that is, and unrepresentative of the intellectual, scholarly and religious life of Judaism as it is, it persists.
Hi Andrew
The passage is not limited to el-gibbor. Do you have a translated version that includes this?
Exekiel 32
21 From within the realm of the dead the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, ‘They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.’
Also note that Yahweh is clearly distinguished from the king; according to Isa. 9:7, “it is the zeal of Yahweh of armies that will accomplish” the king’s birth.
Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.
The signal here is pointing away from a mortal king to an eternal king Messiah.
The belief that the world’s financial and political systems are ruled by a secretive, nefarious Jewish cabal also persists, and for much the same reason.
This source is from the post above. One for Israel. There are several conversion stories on their site.
GROWTH SINCE 1948
In 1948, there were approximately ten million Jewish people around the world who had survived the Holocaust. About 600,000 were living in Israel. Of those, only 23 of them believed in Yeshua as their Messiah. There were some churches led by denominations and missionaries in Israel, but there were no Messianic congregations at all.
In 1989 Israel’s Jewish population had grown to 3.5 million, and by this point, the estimated number of believers had reached 1,200. There were now 30 congregations.
By 1999 there were 4.8 million Jews living in Israel, 81 Messianic congregations and an estimated 5,000 believers.
In 2017, 300 congregations were counted. It has become increasingly difficult to accurately identify the number of Jewish believers in Israel, but a conservative estimate is now 30,000.
Are they claiming those numbers or have those numbers been independently validated by an outside source? They wouldn’t be the first organization to inflate their numbers. And how do they define “Jewish”? Defining who is and isn’t Jewish is very controversial in Israel. I will remain skeptical until I see some more data and a detailed methodology of how the data was obtained.
Are you aware that the author of Chronicles uses this exact same language to describe Solomon’s reign?
“When your days are fulfilled to go to be with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for Me, and I will establish his throne forever. I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to Me. I will not take My steadfast love from him, as I took it from him who was before you, but I will confirm him in my house and in my kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever.”
(1 Chron 17.11–14)
“And of all my sons, for Yahweh has given me many, He has chosen my son Solomon to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of Yahweh over Israel. He said to me, ‘It is your son Solomon who shall build My house and My courts, for I have chosen him to be a son to Me, and I will be a father to him.’”
(2 Chron 28.5–6)
Sure, you can say that 1 Chron 17.11–14 was ultimately fulfilled by Jesus (which is what I believe too) but you still have to admit that its immediate fulfillment was by Solomon. Since in context, Isaiah 9 is obviously about Hezekiah, why not think that the same is true about that prophecy? (i.e., initially fulfilled by Hezekiah, but ultimately fulfilled by the Messiah)
Or even the number of people who think Judaism equals Christianity minus Jesus’ deity. I’ve seen multiple people call Christian unitarians “Jewish with extra steps” or something to that effect.
Though there are an estimated 175,000 to 250,000 Messianic Jews in the U.S. and 350,000 worldwide, according to various counts, they are a tiny minority in Israel – just 10,000-20,000 people by some estimates – but growing, according to both its proponents and critics. Messianic Jews believe that Jesus
That some Jews are being converted to a strain of Evangelical Christianity calling itself “Messianic Judaism” is utterly irrelevant to my point that mainstream Judaism disputes that these OT passages are prophecies about a divine Messiah, particularly given (i) “Messiah”/“anointed” in the OT is usually used in the context of a non-divine “anointed king”, and (ii) Isaiah 9 gives no appearance of being a prophecy about the future.
Independent evidence that they are “a leading movement of bring Jews to Messiah one for Israel”?
So Christians (which includes Messianic Jews) claim. However, there is no evidence that anybody else, including skeptics or the religiously Jewish (which excludes Messianic Jews) accepts these claims.
Thus, anybody who accepts that “there are many Messianic prophecies”, is already a Christian, and so already accepts the Gospel of John, and anybody who rejects John is highly unlikely to accept that “there are many Messianic prophecies”.
This renders your whole “John’s testimony is supported by the Old Testament writings” line of argument entirely pointless!
These claims are both (i) unverifiable and (ii) irrelevant to my argument.
