Which Jesus? The Jesus of the gospels with an earthly ministry or the Jesus of the epistles who didn’t have a human body and appeared as an apparition?
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Hi Boris
This claim about Judea Christian theology. Which Jesus is the wrong question. What did he teach and how does it relate to the Tanakh? Is there a consistent message here? Why was humanity ready to clarify the meaning behind the Law? What can you find in Ezekiel that comments on the change God promised to humanities essence that will allow for a much higher standard of empathy?
Ezekiel 36:26
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Putting a timer on this.
Do the epistles ever cite Jesus as ‘teaching’ anything?
There are some really informative articles from the Huffington Post "Jesus Never Existed, After All"and from the Washington Post, “Did the Historical Jesus really exist? The Evidence just doesn’t add up” on my Facebook page.
Because of the Internet the general public is aware that there’s no historical basis for anything in the Bible. Bart Ehrman admitted that Jesus mythicism is spreading like wildfire in the general public.
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No, the NT writers couldn’t have read the Tanakh even if they had one. All they knew was the Septuagint. Nothing put in the mouth of Jesus by the Catholic evangelists was new or original.
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The traditional rabbinic interpretation is that the Servant in those verses refers to Israel, not the Messiah. If other verses refer to the Messiah that doesn’t mean the Servant is referring to the Messiah.
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Hi T
This is one of the passages that refers to the servant that Rabbi Tobias Singer claims is Messianic.
See, my servant will act wisely[b];
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[c]—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,[d]
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
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Hindus have been waiting for Krishna/kalki for 3,700 years.
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Buddhists have been waiting for Maitreya for 2,600 years.
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Jews have been waiting for the Messiah for 2,500 years.
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Christians have been waiting for Jesus for 2,000 years.
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Sunnah has been waiting for the prophet Issa for 1,400 years.
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Shiites have been waiting for the Mahdi for 1,080 years.
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Druze have been waiting for Hamza Ibn Ali for 1.000 years.
Most religions adopt the idea of a ‘saviour’, and claim that the world will remain full of evil until this saviour comes and fills it with goodness and justice. Perhaps our problem on this planet is that people are waiting for somebody to come and solve their problems, rather than doing it themselves!
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AND Vladimir and Estragon have been waiting for Godot for freakin’ ever!
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You should have read the article. Singer claims that these verses are about Israel after the Messiah has come and restored the nation.
In essence, the final and complete redemption of the Jews, to which the stunned nations will bear witness, contradicts everything Israel’s gentile neighbors had ever previously anticipated, heard, or considered (52:15).
So it is “Messianic” - but that is not the same as identifying the ‘suffering servant” with the Messiah. In the very verses you cite, Singer explicitly identifies the servant as the restored Israel.
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Again he says they are Messianic. Here is the next one (Claimed Messianic) or the first few versus of Isaiah 53.
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Who do you think our is referring to? In the first line of Isaiah 53.
Who is the He that grew up out of dry ground?
Who is the He who had no beauty?
Who is the one who people hide their faces?
Who is the He who is despised and rejected by man kind?
Here is a conversion story to Messianic Judaism based on reading Isaiah 53’s version in the Dead Sea scrolls.
What are, specifically? Can you provide a quote?
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That’s just using ambiguous wording in an attempt to deceive. They are “Messianic” because they are about Israel, following its restoration by the Messiah, as I have shown.
I’d say that Israel fits these very well.
Our and He are both Israel? If you plug Israel into all the He’s, ours etc you will see how awkward this makes the reading.
Here is the next set of versus.
Surely he (Messiah) took up our (the Jewish people) pain
and bore our (the Jewish people) suffering,
yet we (the Jewish people) considered him (Messiah) punished by God,
stricken by him (God), and afflicted.
5 But he (Messiah) was pierced for our transgressions,
he (Messiah) was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us (the Jewish people) peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We (the Jewish people) all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us (Jews) has turned to our (the Jewish people) own way;
and the Lord has laid on him (Messiah)
the iniquity of us all (The Jewish people).
What fits logically.
He, Him= Messiah. Him in one case= God.
We, our, and us= Isaiah and the Jewish people of Israel
Lord= God the Father
This makes the reading clear.
The servant is a metaphor for Israel, so there really isn’t a problem there.
Singer has explanations for the other verses you quote, too. The “we” is not the Jewish people, it is the kings of 52:15. How can you hope to refute Singer’s claims if you don’t know what they are? Is reading the article really too much for you?
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Can you cite where Singer makes this claim?
What “we” points to depends on the passage. What I quoted is narration from the prophet Isaiah who is not a king and the we would include his target audience the people of Israel.
The above paragraph is about Messiah being a sacrifice for the sins of the Jewish people.
The article has already been cited in this thread, and you ought to know that since it is the one you are trying to refute. Which is why I pointed out that you really should have read it first. Here is the link again Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53 - Outreach Judaism
Therefore, Isaiah 53:8 concludes with their stunning confession, “for the transgressions of my people [the gentile nations] they [the Jews]were stricken.”
Because Isaiah is stating what the kings will say, of course.
That is just the interpretation you prefer. However, Singer’s interpretation seems to make at least as much sense - and arguments based on a poor comprehension of the English language are hardly convincing.
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When Isaiah speaks of the suffering remnant of Israel, the messianic king is, therefore, included. The final heir of David’s throne is an integral member of the pious of Israel. This is, according to rabbinic interpretation, the pshat, or the plain meaning of the text in Isaiah 52:13 – 53:12. Therefore, when both ancient and modern rabbinic commentators expound on the clear meaning of the text, they ascribe the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 to the nation of Israel. Moreover, while Ezekiel warned that the righteous can never suffer or die as a sacrificial atonement for the wicked,15 the Talmud teaches:
Hi T
Two passages that are particularly problematic for the non Messianic Jews are Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9. There is an extensive amount of argument on both these passages. The servant can be the Jewish people, the prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel etc), a king and the Messiah promised from the line of King David.
Isaiah 53 was never a blow by blow prophecy of what would specifically happen to the Messiah. It is and was a metaphor for the whole of Israel which would include the Messiah because the Messiah would be part of Israel. It applies the same to the Messiah as it would to any other pious Jew. It is only Christians who are twisting the intent of these scriptures.
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