Just like in churches today, there were ‘mere professors’, and there are severe warnings for those who think they are believers but are mistaken. The warnings are addressed to the whole church, to test themselves. Those who fall away never had had their hearts changed – why they thought they were Christians is another whole topic.
(Perseverance is a birthday gift given when we are born again, and time will tell.)
I had a broken link the The Christian’s Confidence above x2. I corrected it, and here it is again:
The Christian’s Confidence
Brother, I knew you would claim this. That’s why I quoted Jesus words from Revelation. From the above claim and the verse in revelation. The below statements has to be true (I am assuming Jesus is saying the truth about his ability to wipe out names from the book of life).
- Some people whose name is written in the book of life are “mere proffessors”… and their names can be wiped off the book. The names of others who are genuinely born again cannot be wiped off…
You must realise this is a very strange claim… and I don’t see this in the bible.
That’s definitely a comforting thought. I would love to believe it … the problem is that the bible exhorts us towards perseverance,promises grace to persevere etc… But it doesn’t guarantee that all who believe will persevere. It actually predicts apostasy.
Will go through the link you gave.
No. No one who is a mere professor and not a true child of God has their name in the Book of Life. How can you say that?! They do not persevere and thus are not conquerors and do not fit the profile in Revelations.
well Jesus mentioned something specific, i.e wiping off peoples name from the book of Life.
If you need to be born again to have your name written in the book of life… isnt it obvious that Jesus is doing one of the two things below -
a) Making an empty threat/promise in that he cannot wipe off anyone from the book of life.
b) Talking about born again believers being wiped off the book of Life- i.e Jesus has the authority to make such a judgement.
I think b is the only logical option.
Those who overcome will not have their names blotted out. That does not necessarily imply that there are any names that will be blotted out. Keep in mind that here is a lot of poetic and figurative language in Revelation and a rigid literal reading is going to lead you astray.
Did you notice the last item in the list in A Christian’s Confidence?
– “…there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents…” Luke 15:7. Temporary and erasable joy in heaven?!
The angels have to say “Oops, maybe not!”? I don’t think so.
Besides, it is not a threat, but a promise. Read it again.
The letters to the churches are not exactly poetic or apocalyptic stuff. Even if we take it in a figurative manner, it indicate that the person who gets his name blotted out is loosing eternal life which he was given.
The fact that it’s a promise doesn’t change its meaning.
Angels are not omniscient. They will rejoice on anyone’s repentance. They cannot predict if so and so will persevere. Don’t we humans rejoice over someone’s repentance and then mourn when the same person leaves the faith?.. How do you know angels are any different?
The text shows how eager heaven is to welcome all who are willing to repent.
The fact that it’s a promise doesn’t prove that there are any names that will be blotted out.
You apparently didn’t read or think much of A Christian’s Confidence. It is all scripture.
It’s a question of whether Jesus can blot out the names or not.
If its impossible to do so… then Jesus is making a false or atleast meaningless promise…
Let me underline this with a scenario-
Calvinist goes to Heaven and Jesus welcomes him saying : well done good and faithful servant. Because you have overcome, I will not blot out your name from the book of life and will confess you before my father.
The Calvinist replies : You couldn’t blot my name out anyway because I am one of the elect.
This is what you are saying looks like to me.
That’s cute, but impertinent.
A unworthy child who has been chosen to be adopted is humbled and thankful beyond words.
I find myself agreeable to a lot of what you say Ashwin, but im leaning with @DaleCutler a bit more in this one. I know that it is VERY difficult to understand free will vs Gods sovereignty issues. In my humanness, i want to believe that all people are free to choose Gods forgiveness or not. But when i read the Bible, folks outside of Gods family are depicted as spiritually dead and enslaved to sin, not free. The Bible also stands upon the premise that we as Christians need not be concerned to coax this non existent freedom in non believers toward God, but rather give them the message of this gospel where sin is defined well, grace is defined well, propitiation is defined well and the cross is lifted high as a basis of God coming to us while we were still sinners. We can do all of the above by giving an accurate account of Gods word starting in Genesis and culminating with the gospel which the entire OT builds up to in anticipation of Gods redemption plan.
I have to say that this mysterious element within Christianity to me makes it true and unlike every other religion. All religions are about people freely choosing to rise to achieve God or gods. The Christian perspective is about God coming to us to save us and then using us to to proclaim this very gospel of Him coming to us and saving us while we were still enslaved and dead in sin. This message is the power unto salvation “so that no man may boast.” This gospel is not akin to a newborn achieving love from his parents. It is more akin to parents loving their pooping, crying, selfish little infant to even being willing to die for that child! “This is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us.” And “We love because He first loved us.”
Anyway,ironically, the gospel of God recreating dead people (who are not free) which i used to be is more in line with your favored creationism stance where God creates from nothing and less in line with the evolution stance where our existence evolved from already existing matter. Have you ever pondered this?
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That’s good news that you and @DaleCutler agree.
I agree that people are sinful and cannot be saved apart from God’s grace. The problem is with misusing the concept of spiritual death.
Can a “Spiritually dead” person decide to attend church, read the bible, listen to the gospel etc? Can a Spiritually dead person be convicted of Sin?
I would guess you would say yes. These are all possible for a Spiritually dead person by the grace of God, and it’s also possible to accept Christ by the same Grace.
The problem is with making Grace coercive.
Does a Born again person always obey the Holy Spirit? Can he/she make the choice to disobey and follow his/her carnal nature? The answer is yes. If God doesn’t coerce us to receive the Grace of the Spirit after being born again, why do you think he does so before?
On short salvation is impossible without God’s grace. However God’s grace can be resisted against… and people can choose to rebel/disobey.
What do you think the below verse means?
Romans 6: 11 In the same way, you too must continuously consider yourselves dead as far as sin is concerned, but living for God through the Messiah Jesus.
12 Therefore, do not let sin rule your mortal bodies so that you obey their desires.
13 Stop offering the parts of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness. Instead, offer yourselves to God as people who have been brought from death to life and the parts of your body as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin will not have mastery over you, because you are not under Law but under grace.
15 What, then, does this mean? Should we go on sinning because we are not under Law but under grace? Of course not!
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17 But thank God that, though you were once slaves of sin, you became obedient from your hearts to that form of teaching with which you were entrusted!
18 And since you have been freed from sin, you have become slaves of righteousness.
It’s scripture that is interpreted beyond what it says… let me point out some examples-
– bought: “We are not our own, we are bought with a price.” 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (How does Jesus get a refund for his blood if we can declare that someone can lose their salvation and become “unbought”?!)
Jesus Shed his blood for everyone, even false prophets.consider
2Peter 2:1 1 Now there were false prophets among the people, just as there also will be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction on themselves
Should Jesus ask for a refund from the false Prophets whom he bought with his blood?
– promised a crown: “Henceforth there is [not maybe] laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.” 2 Timothy 4:8.
Those who persevere will receive a reward. How do you know you will persevere? There were many who thought they would and did not… will they also receive crowns.
– adopted: “he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will” Ephesians 1:5 (He’s going to change his purpose?)
God’s will is that those who receive Jesus are adopted. It’s not a predestination of individuals but a class of all people who will believe. This is clear from verse 7 in the same chapter -
7 In union with him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our offenses, according to the riches of God’s grace
If we are no longer in Union with Him… What do we have?
All the other verses also have similar interpretational biases.
What is our assurance as Christians?
Romans 8: 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor anything above, nor anything below, nor anything else in all creation can separate us from the love of God that is ours in union with the Messiah Jesus, our Lord.
Can we seperate ourselves from God? If we have truly repented… why would we want to?
You do the same thing. I suspect that you accept a natural explanation for almost all natural phenomenon.
If there isn’t evidence one way or the other, then perhaps there is a theological argument to be made, at least a tentative one. However, when there is mountains and mountains of evidence that is consistent with a natural mechanism then people aren’t searching out a natural explanation just to have one. They are following the evidence that points to a natural process, just as you do for the vast, vast majority cases.
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You are assuming naturalism here. There is a lot of observations which are explained using natural explanations… and the explanation usually ends up with ridiculous events of chance happening again and again.
I make decisions based on probability every day in life… and I use the same method to evaluate the claims of evolution.
Don’t you? When a cloud forms, don’t you assume it is forming naturally?
Stealing from Mark Twain, there are lies, damned lies, and probability.
Ya… anything can happen by chance…
Sure… but I don’t assume the thoughts I have when looking at the clouds are caused by just “natural”/materialistic factors alone.
We look at things very differently.
The difference between us is that i believe that it is God that begins the work by which one comes to faith. Look at the Apostle Paul in his conversion. He was blinded, Jesus spoke to him, and to everyones surprise he was divinely commanded and guided to meet Ananias his former foe. Paul became a follower of Christ and was baptized. This entire process was a work of the Holy Spirit and was not in one single way a free will choice by Paul. In fact, Paul was on his way to persecute and potentially kill more Christians when this process began.
So what do i say to those unbelievers in earshot of this? I say, you are not the maker of your destiny, God is. At the same time i say, part of His choice in molding your destiny is the fact that Jesus died for the sins of everyone on this planet! Faith in Jesus by looking to the cross where Gods wrath was absorbed by His Son is the truth. Look to the cross. Have sorrow towards God for sin, look to the cross for forgiveness and find a gospel fcused church in order to grow in your faith Best decision i have ever made.