I still don’t see a difference. Can you explain the distinction between God causing an event in the present vs. God intervening in the past to cause an event in the present?
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@Faizal_Ali mentions Tasmania regarding human Joshua’s discussion of human migration.
One guess as to the ONLY source of migration TO Tasmania?
Above I posted a video of conditions on Bass Strait (admitedly on a bad day).
This is an example of an Australian Aboriginal Bark Canoe:
Notice how little freeboard it has?
Imagine this canoe in Bass Strait, even on a relatively calm day. Now imagine it traveling the 250km to Tasmania.
I would suggest that any “migration TO Tasmania” was unlikely between the closing of the landbridge c. 8000yo and European settlement.
That makes no difference. The question is when someone from outside of Tasmania who was a descendant of Adam could have arrived on Tasmania and procreated with one of its inhabitants. From where that immigrant came is of no matter.
How does the isolation of Tasmania impact recent universal ancestry? (peacefulscience.org)
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It certainly warms my heart that you find so much certainty. But the one thing the Christian God has plenty of is Providence! And since the one thing PS.org has plenty of is argumentiveness, I might as well come loaded for “bear”!
Bizarrely, even @swamidass is too timid to invoke a full messure of Providence.
I think this link from @Faizal_Ali is
the one i think it is. [If it isnt i will replace the URL with “PENDING” and find it.]
John, l will use the case of the Dino-killing asteroid to exemplify Providence vs the Miraculous in a later posting.
For now, we have to set aside the over-eager use of the word “miraculous” by those who would include even God’s providence. My Pilgrim ancestors would utter thanks for the providential appearance of schools of breeding fish just as food stores were becoming exhausted. The Pilgrim Fathers had enough respect for God’s divine book of nature that they didnt have to flatter themselves that God “poofed” these schools of fish into existence.
Instead they could imagine God using the rhythms of natural laws eons before - - to make sure, when this season came, the Saints of Plymouth would not go hungry.
As for the survival of Adam’s Pedigree, the key step of providence is that at least one strand of Adam’s descendants survive to 1 C.E. Joshua uses descriptions of probability such as “Likely” or “Very Likely”. I find that prose inadequate for the divine mind that can number the hairs on our heads … or the track the fall of sparrows.
For the God who can harden the Pharaoh’s heart and open Sarah’s womb, the Providential fates of who marries whom - - and who has the most fertile children - - would be a cinch!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Then again, I don’t know what you think it means.
Sorry, but I still don’t see a fundamental difference between God causing an event in the present and God causing an event in the past that causes an event in the present. Both could be filed under “providence” as far as I can tell.
By the way, I think you’re misunderstanding the issue wrt Tasmania. It’s not that people could never go from Australia to Tasmania, but that Tasmania was inaccessible from ca. 9,700 BC until the modern day. This is a problem for GAE, but only if Adam existed after ~10,000 BC.
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…or if the Tasmanians couldn’t just be SOL when it came to eternal salvation.
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You persist in being as unclear as possible. What does “using the rhythms of natural laws” even mean? How does “providence” work? You’re using it as a meaning-free buzzword, and that blocks any real communication.
No, that’s not at all the point. The point is for everyone, without exception, to be a descendent of Adam by that date. This requires no intervention by God, as shown by the simulation. Everybody alive in 4000 BC who had children would almost certainly be ancestral to the entire population. Where’s the need for providence, whatever you mean by that? Whatever do you mean by that?
How would God arrange for particular people to marry? All that verbiage communicated absolutely nothing about the nature of providence.
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It is inaccesdible because of stormy waters, yes?
Who specifically had powers over stormy waters? Yahweh.
This is why Providence is such an issue.
Providence is NOT God working a sudden miracle, where God intervenes in the normal workings of nature.
The doctrine of Providence in Eastern Orthodoxy is set out by St John of Tobolsk: "St. John Damascene describes it thus: ‘Providence is Divine will which maintains everything and wisely rules over everything’ … It was not by chance that the iniquitous Israeli King Ahab was struck by an arrow that flew in between the seams of his armor.
Truly that arrow was directed by the hand of God, just as was the one which struck Julian the Apostate; only for the soldier who let fly the arrow was it accidental. It was not by chance that swallows flew into the home of Tobit and blinded the righteous man. This happened at God’s command [before there was even a Tobit], in order to hold Tobit up as an example to succeeding generations, as we learn from the Angel who accompanied his son Tobias. Nothing happens by chance.
It was not by chance that Caesar Augustus ordered the census to be taken in the year of Christ’s Nativity. It was not by chance that Christ met with the Samaritan woman at the well in Sychar and spoke with her. All this was foreseen and written down in the books of Divine Providence before the beginning of time.”[8]
Of course it’s possible in the event of a miracle. But one of the benefits of the GAE model is that it doesn’t require miracles beyond what’s described in the biblical account, unlike YEC or ID. Then this brings us back to whether there is a real distinction between miracles and what you call “providence.”
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It doesnt take a miracle to have a smooth sea for a few weeks. It takes an unusually calm channel under the providential eye of God.
Still opaque. You might as well just say that it’s all just a mystery.
I would suggest that whether a “smooth sea for a few weeks” is outright miraculous, or merely providential, would depend on the prevailing conditions of the sea in question.
@tim (and @John_Harshman ):
Favorable prevailing conditions IS, by definition, “providential”.
When Pilgrims, or Church Fathers, or the Bible talk about God’s command or instructions since before the beginning of the Universe, the meaning is clear - - tantamount to Behe’s pool shot.
Or just like the front loading of the Dino-killing asteroid, targeting Earth since the big bang! The alternative for God is to “poof” the asteroid into existence, traveling at speed, just inside the asteroid belt (or just outside the solar system). The distinction matters only to one’s theology.
So … when an atheist says he doesnt see a difference, a Christian shrugs his shoulders in feigned shock.
And when John questions the definition of “providence” offered, there is plenty more feigned shock to go around.
By the way, @Tim , who says we have to cross the straight aĺl in one go?
I think you are over-stating the power of universal ancestry. For it to work, there has to be a significant number of ancestral lines that disappear!
And you understate providence: god softens the hearts of those he wants to mate-up… using hormones and poetry, etc.
This video is pretty clear and uses graphics well:
Catholic birth control methods?
By definition? What’s the definition?
That at least is clear: a miracle in the distant past. But is that really what you mean?
You are as bad at body language as you are at words. What’s the difference?
You didn’t offer a definition, at least not an intelligible one. But can we now agree that “providence” is a miracle in the distant past?
You still have no comprehension of GAE. Nothing has to disappear. You have many ancestors. There are a great many universal ancestors. To have no clue at this late date, after multiple explanations and, apparently, still with access to the book, is astounding.
Back to the vague explanation. How does he “use” hormones and poetry, etc.? Another miracle at the beginning of the world?
Sorry, don’t look at random videos. Make your own points. So far you’re on record as misunderstanding GAE.
I’m not an atheist. I still don’t see a meaningful distinction between a miracle in the past and a miracle in the present. Can you define “providential” so we know for sure what you’re talking about?
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Ha! Humor… i like that!