Denton's Structuralist Challenge to Evolution

I’m finished with Nature’s Destiny. Very disappointing. He spends most of the book arguing that physics is fine-tuned to produce life and humans, but I was interested in his ideas on biology. And there he offers little. Natural selection is incapable of doing the job, but he has only a few sentences on what actually would be capable, and those seem mutually contradictory.

Evolution apparently is saltational, with complex features arising all at once. Many of them are not adaptive, but why they arise instead is not stated. It may be that organisms choose their own evolution. It may be that new forms are pre-ordained by the laws of physics. Evolution is “directed”, but how or why is never mentioned. Evolution is directed toward Homo sapiens, or maybe just something humanoid, and this may happen on every earthlike planet, or maybe just a few. The evolutionary tree may be fore-ordained, the same everywhere, or it may be highly contingent. The only sure facts are 1) known evolutionary processes couldn’t do it, and therefore 2) God did it. Somehow. Very, very disappointing.

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I had a similar reaction to his “Still a theory in crisis”. His arguments about form were not at all persuasive. When “Nature’s Destiny” came out, I had no inclination to read it.

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I’m shocked, shocked to find there’s nothing of interest in a book by someone @Eddie touts as one of the great thinkers of ID!

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Speaking of @Eddie, what’s happened to him?

This one?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/39472547/The_protein_folds_as_platonic_forms_new_20151027-28022-165ttfo.pdf?response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DThe_Protein_Folds_as_Platonic_Forms_New.pdf&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A%2F20200213%2Fus-east-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20200213T061910Z&X-Amz-Expires=3600&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=68c02ab4e584c758081f680cd56b57ef94489e12f149ec880a49ad57523c4999

Yep, that’s the one.

One question that comes to mind is, can you imagine a set of laws of physics and constants of nature, that gives rise to complex chemistry which does NOT have any inherent biases?

Will it not always be the case that there is going to be some collection of structures that are more stable in some environment than others?

They write:

During folding the amino acid sequence of a protein appears to be searching conformation space for increasingly stable intermediates which lead it step wise toward the deepest energy minimum for that sequence, which corresponds to its final native conformation (Ptitsyn & Finkelstein, 1980; Finkelstein & Ptitsyn, 1987). The process is driven thermodynamically via a succession of free energy decreases (Dinner et al., 2000). The process of folding is often pictured as being analogous to a ball finding its way down the sides of a complex rather irregularly shaped bowl to the bottom of the bowl, its final preordained and natural resting place, where the bottom of the bowl represents the natural free energy minimum of the fold.
(…)
However a fold is able to maintain and regain its native conformation in the face of these microchallenges because its native conformation, being a natural free energy minimum, acts as a natural attractor ‘‘continually drawing’’ all the parts of the fold back into its proper native conformation (the natural free energy minimum of the fold). And just as a ball in a bowl always ends up at the bottom of the bowl, a fold is also able to get back ‘‘home’’ or to recover its proper conformation along an infinity of different paths. In short, the folds are robust natural existents, whose proper forms are under the governance and supervision of natural law.

I’m left wondering whether it is even possible in principle that it could be otherwise.

It seems to me that a set of natural laws that is capable of giving rise to a chemistry that has the potential to form complex interactions we could recognize as an organism, a living entity, has to involve physical forces of attraction and repulsion, and structures (something like atoms even if not the ones we know) that carry those properties.

If you have entities with attributes that attract and repel each other of many different kinds, you’re going to get the same phenomenon Denton et al describes above. There will always be some “native conformation” that is the natural free energy minimum state of that assemblage.

Another problem I see is that it’s almost like they are ignoring natural selection as a process of transgenerational change. It is not clear to me how they are imagining the “attractor” in fold space is able to instantiate it’s attractive force across generations as some protein folds evolve. It’s important to remember that they’re not saying protein folds didn’t evolve, rather that it wasn’t natural selection that determined why some fold instead of anther did.

But that simply doesn’t make sense. The only way to ensure that some fold evolves in future generations would be to have natural selection, where mutations in the evolving protein fold are discarded or retained on the basis of how they affect the ability of the protein to adopt the fold.

Later they write:

We speculate that the fact that the robustness of the folds [which enables them to maintain their forms and dependent functions in the face of both mutational challenges and conformational disturbances due to the turbulence of the cell’s interior] is ‘‘natural’’ may have deep evolutionary implications. The robustness of biological systems is generally conceived of as being analogous to that of advanced machines utilizing such devices as feedback control, parallel circuitry, error fail-safe devices, redundancy and so forth (Keller, 2000; Kitano, 2002; Csete & Doyle, 2002). But such robustness which we suggest might be termed ‘‘artifactual robustness’’ is inherently complex and can only be arrived at after millions of years of evolution and is necessarily a secondary and derived feature of any biological system or structure. The robustness of the folds is a natural intrinsicfeature of the folds themselves and not a secondarily evolved feature. Robustness of this sort is ‘‘for free’’ and does not require the intervention of natural selection.

Right, the robustness of some particular fold owes to the physical properties of the atoms that make up the molecule. Why is that protein fold stable under these conditions? Well because the electrons in this part of the molecule are held in place by their attraction to the protons in this other part of the molecule. That’s physics. Nobody says natural selection is messing around with the laws of physics when some protein evolves.

Rather selection is acting on what it has to work with: Amino acids, and their properties of physical attraction and repulsion. Hence why some stable protein fold evolves is that it’s stability is an adaptive property. Mutations that destabilize it too much(or make it too rigid) are discarded because they negatively affect the protein’s ability to implement it’s function(or have some other side effect that impacts organismal fitness).

I think there have also been some recent developments in our understanding of the evolution of folding proteins from intrinsically disordered states, that contradict Denton et al’s case here. That stably folding proteins really do appear to evolve gradually, under natural selection, from less stable ancestral states.

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There have been ongoing debates between quantitative geneticists and morphologists as to how constrained evolution is. The quantitative geneticists argue that they find that they can select animals and plants in pretty much any direction they want. The morphologists (including evo-devo researchers) argue that the possible paths of evolution are very constrained. Stephen Jay Gould was in the latter camp. Based on what is being said here it sounds as if Denton is in an extreme version of the latter camp. I am surprised to hear that he thinks sentient beings very much like ourselves are inevitable everywhere. He is touted by the IDists and creationists because he argues that evolution is “a theory in crisis”. But they should be less happy with the idea that human-like beings will pop up everywhere. After all, the IDists and creationists devote a lot of effort to argue that Earth is a special place, the only place that could have folks like us. Without arguing that, you end up with various supernatural events in theology needing to be replicated all over the place. That latter would seem to be implied by Denton’s argument.

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That’s OK. He also says they aren’t. You can find just about anything you like in his book, but whatever it is, God must have had something to do with it.

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I have denatured and and refolded proteins, and have recovered the native activity which would seem to indicate retrieval of the original protein conformation. RNA and DNA secondary structures can also be denatured and refolded, such as stem loop structures. As I am sure you are aware, being a molecular biological technician, the chemistry and physics of biochemistry does follow universal laws.

Where Denton gets it wrong is the Butterfly effect. Small differences in the beginning of the process can result in large differences at the end of the process. Small perturbations of a delicately balanced system can have a lot of outcomes, especially when it is a contingent and iterative process.

Solar systems may be a good counter example for Denton’s thesis. Would we expect to see the same exact star type and planets in every solar system in the universe? Absolutely not. They all operate under the same exact universal laws, and yet the results are going to be different in almost every star system. We wouldn’t expect an exact copy of Saturn in every star system, much less an identical Earth.

Are there basic protein folds that are easily formed and perhaps common in abiogenesis? Perhaps. However, how that plays out over the long term in evolutionary pathways can vary, a lot. Using transcription factors and binding sites as an example, while a fold for DNA binding might be common the gene downstream of a binding site is not controlled by chemistry or physics but by history and contingency.

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Are you sure about Gould?

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Gould did invoke unpredictability, but did also argue (elsewhere) for the importance of constraint in evolution. It is as if there are channels evolution must follow, but they intersect and fork enough to have a lot of long-term unpredictability.

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Denton thinks where conditions are right beings like ourselves will evolve. He just thinks Earth is likely the only place where these conditions are met.

I would agree with Gould on this point. Once an evolutionary pathway is chosen then others will close down. For example, a mammal is probably not going to evolve a chitinous exoskeleton like that found in arthropods, but mammals may find modifications of already existing functions that could serve as an external armor.

Where did you find that one?

His water book, his fire book, and his light book. They also have accompanying documentaries on YouTube if you don’t want to read them. Though they are short reads.

Has he become an alchemist? Aren’t those books taken straight from Nature’s Destiny?

http://privilegedspecies.com

Biology of the Baroque is the one you’d be most interested in I think. Covers a lot of what has been discussed on this thread @John_Harshman

It’s a silly unimportant book. More than 10 ago it was being trumpeted as a game-changing tour de force of evolutionary refutation, by people who it seems hadn’t actually read it. I read it and wrote about it on my blog. The tl;dr version:

  • It’s not a refutation of evolution (or “darwinism”) and doesn’t attempt to be.
  • It’s a reworking of book a century earlier, about fine tuning.
  • It has relatively little about biology and much less about evolution.

It’s silly and unimportant, but more notably is not a book about or against evolution.

http://sfmatheson.blogspot.com/2008/11/critiquing-natures-destiny-by-michael.html

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It’s also inconsistent in its claims, and it equivocates like crazy. Fine-tuned for life turns into fine-tuned for intelligence turns into fine-tuned for humanoid intelligence turns into fine-tuned for Homo sapiens, with no apparent understanding that all these claims are different. And then the event is in a few places seen as contingent rather than predetermined. Is it that he can’t write clearly or that he doesn’t have a real idea?

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