Discovery Institute May Have Hit a New Low?

The bogyman term uniformitarianism is misleading and anachronistic, but it does serve to highlight at least one positive - the scientific study of the past is based on exhaustive observation and operational experimentation. The soul of science is in uncovering not just random facts about the world, but the elementary, fundamental principles which underlay all of nature.

The alternative geological and astronomical explanations YEC puts forward enjoy no observational or operational support whatsoever. YEC routinely rejects extrapolations of observational science in favor of invented explanations which have never been observed, such as speeded up radioactive decay, algae blooms creating chalk formations kilometers deep, rapid magnetic reversals, freeway speed tectonic drift, hyper-evolution, and so forth. If YEC is so respectful of observational science, where are the observations? It makes no difference if you press a distinction, YEC is pervasively hostile to observational science.

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No Jeff, creation “scientists” have proposed answers based on the desire to defend their interpretation of scripture. If they practiced real science, they would have abandoned YEC a long time ago.

What you “appreciate” are the products of applying the scientific method, that is, scientific knowledge. You don’t appreciate the practice of science itself when it comes to areas that challenge YEC beliefs.

Hypothesis 1: earth is six thousand years.
Hypothesis 2: earth is orders of magnitude older than six thousand years.

Hypothesis tests: radiometric dating, tree rings analysis and others.

Findings: signal for an old age of the earth is very strong in the entire collection of data, falsifying the young earth hypothesis.

Mainstream scientists: on the basis of these findings, we hereby conclude the age of earth amounts to billions of years.

YEC scientists: these findings clash with our interpretation of scripture, so its either they are wrong or our interpretation is. Of course, our interpretation is right, therefore we must find explanations for these findings even if they sound miraculous or ridiculous.

You are free to choose what makes you happy, but a lot of things that make people happy don’t conform with reality. With science, we can try to avoid our biases to the greatest extent possible and arrive at a fairly accurate description of reality, be it in the past or present.

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I would suggest that these are not at all close to the biggest challenges to YEC. The biggest challenges are the thousands of situations where disparate data are significantly correlated to one another. For instance, with the Hawaiian Islands, the distance travelled over time correlates to the radiometric data samples from each island through the island chain, continuing through the Hawaiian Seamounts, and on through the Emperor Seamounts, nearly to Alaska. As well, as you move from southeast to northwest, the islands are more worn due to erosion, have a greater amount of topsoil, have a deeper base of coral and more sand.

According to AiG, these islands were created only months apart just 4000 or so years ago. Single points of data are NOT your problem. Compounding data that are correlated to one another are your problem.

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I’d say that your biggest conceptual challenge is the nested part of nested hierarchies.

But they only obfuscate when it comes to nested hierarchies. No answers.

If there are separate kinds that have evolved since their creation, there should be very obvious discontinuities in those nested hierarchies.

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If they “fully believe” that, they should have taken action. They haven’t, because there’s no such distinction. Events hypothesized to have occurred in the past make perfectly testable predictions about what we have yet to learn.

Correct.

I’m talking about how publications in the primary scientific literature decline when a productive scientist like Sanford or Behe or Jeanson takes up ID or creationism.

For individuals over time, before vs. after embracing ID or creationism. If creationism has any scientific validity, primary publications (not simply publications), the way that scientists measure productivity in peer review, should increase instead of decreasing. Does that make sense?

Examples:
A primary publication of mine:
https://www.pnas.org/content/114/42/11115.long

Secondary publications of mine (reviews):
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/dneu.22125

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Nested hierarchies are our biggest challenge?? Then we’re fairing way better than evolutionists, because you have many challenges, and they’re worse than that one.

So you’re still looking at numbers of publications to support your “creationism hinders science” hypothesis.

First off, there’s a causality issue here regarding “before vs after”, because the only indicator would be some public admittance. There are currently “closet” creationists who are fully performing their duties as scientists. Also there are documented cases were once some have gone public, their careers were effected simply by that action. This “before vs after” could actually implicate an adverse bias in the career field.

With that, I see no point in continuing this discussion. You made the bold claim that “All evidence” supports that “creationism hinders science.” I’ve repeatedly giving you opportunity to expound, but all you talk about is numbers of publications.

Perhaps the following would have been better phrases:

“Creationism hinders common descent”
“Open creationism hinders careers”
“Creationism hinders other worldviews”

You get the last word here, because I’m ready to move on…

Talkin’ smack is pretty much useless. You should either address nested hierarchy (preferable) or point out what challenges to “evolutionists” are worse than nested hierarchy (not as good, but not useless). Of course you could do both.

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That was poor form, and realized that soon after I posted it, but not in time to retract it. So your comment was rather deserved…

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@RonSewell, @Michael_Okoko, @Michael_Callen,

I did read each of your posts (I was expecting a lot more replies).
So much I would love to share, so little time. Just a brief reply to each of you.

All origins models seem to have their non-observed “inventions”… inflation, dark matter & dark energy, as well as the multiverse come to mind.

We certainly are trying to piece together an origins model that has its basis in scripture. We’re pretty open about that. Doing so does in a sense “paint us into a corner.” It certainly confines what options we have, because anything we propose must have some scripture support. We don’t just arbitrarily declare that light could be coming at us at infinite speed without a verse to support. We don’t just arbitrarily declare that physical laws were accelerated during the flood without scripture support.

It sure makes our task more challenging to place ourselves within those confines. BUT…what young earth creationists are coming up with is rather satisfying. It’s actually encouraging to see the “pieces coming together.” 25 years ago when I first started contemplating this topic, I didn’t have a lot of answers. Today I see so many more answers. And more answers are coming. That’s why I’m finding this worldview exciting, and why I find this worldview more intellectually satisfying.

“Thousands?” I’ve studied this topic in depth. Not only our problems, but the problems that come with belief in an old universe as well. When I hear statements like that I can’t help but wonder how much you’ve really researched both sides of this. I’m not saying that in a judgmental way, but it does make me wonder…

Let me end with this: Before I get more replies, understand two things: 1) I’ve already researched challenges to YEC. You can offer them up, but I’ve heard most of them already. And it just ends up becoming a volley of throwing evidences back and forth.
2) What’s REALLY important is your starting point. You can’t discuss the origins of the universe and just quibble over radiometric dating & coral. I believe it begins with philosophical and theological questions. Questions like: Are you adhering to the multiverse? If not, do you believe in a deistic non-personal entity that “kicked it off” and left it to run? If not, how about the God of the Bible, and if so, how do you interpret scripture?

I think your starting point is an important question, and one that should be addressed first. It’s obvious what mine is.

Whether you’ve heard them and whether you have a response are quite different things. In my experience, you have never offered any real response to any objections to YEC. Nor have you offered any evidence in favor of it. You have at most alluded to the existence of such things, as you did above.

If that’s the case, we aren’t talking about science.

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Golly. No “starting point” here. I’m curious about all of it, but mostly about biological diversity. I certainly think it would be a hideous error to begin an investigation into such things with philosophical questions, which can avail one absolutely nothing by themselves. It gets the questions exactly backward.

Proximate causes of proximate phenomena. It all starts from there, from observation. Philosophy contributes empiricism and then is pretty much done.

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I remember feeling this way as well. Today, it’s strange to me that I, as a layman with no actual education in the relevant fields, felt so comfortable in rejecting 150 years of scientific progress by professionals. Looking back, I can see the theological commitments I had that boxed me in. I see the fingerprints of such in your next point:

Theism, deism, atheism, agnosticism, these are all views compatible with the science of evolution, and none of them have to be “starting points” to evaluate the evidence. What sets up red flags for me is when I see proponents of particular subsets of theism like YEC use this “starting point” stuff as a justification to explicitly state they cannot be wrong. Some of these proponents don’t have, even in principle, any markers to indicate they may be mistaken. You can see this in the statements of faith of organizations like AiG, ICR, and CMI. That’s a terrible pit to get stuck in, my friend, and many don’t get out of it at all. I’m one of the lucky ones.

This also used to be one of my go-to’s. All I can say is don’t box yourself into a place where you can’t see your starting point is wrong. Garbage in, garbage out.

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But you have yet to address nested hierarchies. That’s even poorer form. I’m confident that you won’t.

We can look at h-indices if you prefer.

How is their productivity?

No excuse for that, as creationists have access to plenty of money.

The ID movement has its very own journal, Jeff, that is laughably empty. Creationists have their own journals that contain virtually no primary literature.

No excuse there, either.

You say that about every discussion.

That’s objectively false. I pointed out the absence of creationist pharma companies. I pointed out the absence of active research in creationist educational institutions. You didn’t address either one.

Feel free to tell me about all that creationists are doing to end the coronavirus pandemic.

Why the first-person pronouns? What’s your specific role in this?

I don’t see any pieces, much less any coming together. Why not be specific?

I don’t. Why don’t you share some answers with us?

How can you say that when you clearly don’t understand nested hierarchies?

I don’t recall that you’ve offered any evidence at all here, just rhetoric. If you disagree, would you please point me to even a single datum that you’ve thrown, or even tossed, in this forum?

TIA.

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I’m your huckleberry :slight_smile:

Would love to have this conversation. I think you and I start at the same place and draw different conclusions. I’ll most likely have to engage tomorrow, though. Much to do before sleep, and morning comes early.

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Hi Jeff: Thanks for writing back. I appreciate that you are taking the time to dialog, but your mind is so closed that I fear you won’t be able to hear. Really, not thousands, there are millions of examples of this. Understand that you don’t merely find all examples in literature that speaks against YEC, because most scientists don’t bother with such efforts. Rather, the entirety of science speaks volumes of these examples of correlated data. One of the most effective means of proving your point is to correlate multiple data points with statistical significance. Doing so means that, to a specific degree, the correlation is not random. This happens in many scientific disciplines on a daily basis.

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Isn’t that sort of the point of critiquing uniformitarianism? That only perhaps in observation of catastrophes would you be able to find some idea of how a world-wide catastrophic flood would operate? The processes SHOULD be fundamentally different than what’s observed.

Hi Jeff. You talk about a YEC model and pieces coming together. As a geologist I don’t see this at all. Consider the distribution patterns of fossils in the sedimentary rocks. All that YEC says is that ‘the Flood caused it’. But that is not really an explanation, is it now? Yes, a Flood would likely cause lots of dead animals and plants, and their fossils could be preserved in sediment, sure, but ‘Flood’ says nothing at all about why they fossils follow the clear pattern of ordering both vertically and laterally over the globe.

In contrast, mainstream geology has by now a very detailed model of the fossil distribution, with the main causes being evolution and plate tectonics. Then, behind these two key words lie massive amounts of much more fine grained explanations based on observations and theory that you could read up in textbooks and the primary literature.

When we measure a stratigraphic section and we see the fossil content systematically changing from bottom to top, we can simply explain that because the animals didn’t live all together at the same time, unlike in a Flood scenario. Therefore, obviously, they didn’t die all together at the same time, and therefore their preserved remains are systematically vertically segregated as time went by and the sedimentary column was deposited with the fossils inside it. Straightforward, no?

I have never seen a YEC explanation of this ubiquitous fact of the fossil distribution that gets beyond children’s cartoon concepts (‘little mammals outran big dinosaurs up the hill’ or some sort of nonsense).

Yet the undeniable fact of systematic fossil sorting has been recognised by now for some 250 years. It was the very basis of our understanding of geological history, long before absolute dating came on the scene. Why is it so hard for YEC to come up with some realistic models for this, even tentatively? Instead, it is essentially ignored as an inconvenient truth, or explained away by armwaving and silly stories that don’t stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

So here we have a fundamental fact of geology and Earth history, and YEC hasn’t got anything sensible to say about it.

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As I alluded, uniformitarianism is a somewhat anachronistic term, because it hails from a founding era of geological debate for which that dichotomy no longer frames discussion. By now these aspects of geological discourse have long been subsumed into the tectonic model and much more detailed understanding of the epochs of earth history. The real point is this, that whether one is dealing with gradual processes or a cataclysmic episode such as the Chicxulub impact that ended the era of the dinosaurs, the underlying principles are continuous and uniform .

The build up of chalk formations over millions of years is entirely consistent with applicable and observed principles. The explosive impact of the asteroid is also entirely consistent with physical principles of energy conservation, and accords with unmistakable evidence of cratering, global dispersal of well defined chemical and impact signatures, and a spectacularly abrupt and pervasive discontinuity in the fossil record over the entire planet.

Even gradual processes are characterized by change over eons. The changes in the Earth’s atmosphere and ocean is recorded in the mineralization cycle. So, between catastrophic change and steady change over geological time, uniformitarianism is simply a mischaracterization of what scientists have recognized now for many decades, and that is change is both constant and punctuated.

What are uniform, however, are the underlying principles which serve to unify and explain disparate phenomena. The field theories which govern subatomic physics from weapons to astrophysics to radiometric dating are based on observational science. Half lives are not independent variables, they are dependent on these more fundamental principles.

For another instance, the plate tectonic model unifies observations, both current and recorded in geology, of the earthquake and volcanic activity of the ring of fire, including your neighborhood. It explains the pattern of magnetic reversals found in the spreading fissures of the oceanic trenches. It explains how the continents are shaped to fit together, and why the same formations are found as severed halves. It explains the rising majesty of the Himalayas, and the ground down Canadian Shield. It explains why some rock is young with crystals rich in parent species, and other rock is old and full of daughter isotopes. As @Michael_Callen pointed out above, it explains the pattern of the Hawaiian chain through to Alaska, as well as the Galapagos. It is consistent with what we expect to be driven from the heat balance of the Earth’s core. And plate tectonics is observed; movement is well within the sensitivity of our instrumentation.

So we have basic principles derived from observational science with tremendous explanatory power. YEC rejects the application of these basic principles, not because of any failure in the observation, but because of the theological implication. There is no scientific grounds for such dismissal. It is observational, experimental, and operational science that has yielded these principles. So I do not give credence to the contention that YEC accepts observational science.

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As I recall, I did show you something new: JeffB and Swamidass: Understanding Evidence for Phylogeny - #82 by swamidass.

:slight_smile:

That is certainly true.

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