Do all deer share a common ancestor?

I have a prediction from separate creation of species (or separate creation with common design): Chromosome numbers should not vary. Since the packaging of genes is not functionally important for the most part, they should all be packaged the same way. Now of course that depends on the assumption that the designer would re-use parts for convenience.

There’s another possible assumption, that the designer would create each species anew, with no reference to other work. In that case we would predict that nothing would be in common between species except those bits for which only one functional solution exists. In that case we might find that all species had cells, DNA, perhaps even nuclei. But there’s no reason to expect a common genetic code, much less a second common mitochondrial code that differed slightly from the nuclear code. There may be a reason to expect the same amino acids, to allow for predation. But there’s no reason to expect similarity of any genes, or of synteny, or of the ways in which the species are adapted to their environments, either on the phenotypic or molecular level.

I suppose other predictions would be possible based on different assumptions about the designer. But at least those two predictions are well falsified. We can conclude that a designer, if one exists, was not of the sort entailed by those assumptions. Bill has made the first assumption but hasn’t followed it through in examining the data. To my knowledge he’s never considered the second.

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Based on this strategy how would a designer get the outcome of a large diverse set of living organisms? Diverse chromosome and gene arrangements create reproductive isolation.

Your prediction here is more compatible with common descent than common design. With common descent I would predict chromosome counts to seldom vary due to their deleterious nature. I would predict gene arrangements to be almost the same as genes are mostly copied during the reproductive process.

The reason for this is the same as for your prior prediction.

If a designer’s strategy was to conserve designs by re-use of parts it make no sense to use multiple genetic codes that appear serve no functional purpose. What value do you see with multiple codes?

I see no reason to assume a Devine designer would use a different overall design strategy than humans employ. For graphical simulations humans use a pixelated display with 3 grey scaled components (red, green and blue pixels) that can generate a very large amount of images.

In our 3 plus dimensional world atoms have the ability to assemble and generate a large variety of living organisms and matter with the same basic components of assembled sub atomic particles.

There are myriad ways to create reproductive isolation. Chromosome changes and gene arrangements are not necessary. Nor does a change in either necessarily cause isolation. Bad prediction.

That too is a bad prediction, since it relies on faulty assumptions. It appears that chromosomal fissions and fusions are often not deleterious and “mostly copied” doesn’t preclude a significant frequency of mutation.

No idea what you think that meant. You are rearranging my text, which creates confusion.

Exactly. That’s why that suggestion involved a quite different strategy. An omnipotent designer has no reason to conserve designs.

No? It seems to me that an omnipotent designer, by definition, would not suffer from human limitations. You disagree?

True. But a single genetic code doesn’t in any way follow from that.

If a designer’s strategy was to conserve designs by re-use of parts it make no sense to use multiple” chromosome arrangements “that appear serve no functional purpose.”

…how would a designer get the outcome of a large diverse set of living organisms? Diverse” genetic codes “create reproductive isolation.”

What other strategies would create reproductive isolation? Why do you think they would be preferred?

This does not follow from the current empirical evidence.

An omnipotent designer is dealing with a finite universe with finite laws. He is limited by the basic components He created.

What I would expect is a design that is efficient. Your need to label the designer omnipotent shows weakness in your argument against multiple origins. Omnipotent is a theological claim that is expressed from the human perspective.

A single genetic code follows from a universe designed from a very flexible single component containing sub atomic particles.

A reason is reproductive isolation. He also uses different nucleotide arrangements and different gene arrangements This is no different than molecules using different arrangements of atoms to get a diversity of different types of matters.

This is where Behe infers design. “the purposeful arrangement of parts”.

This is one strategy. Why do you think this would be a more efficient strategy? God could have also used different atomic particles but He did not.

What we see at this point is humans using God’s designs to fix problems. Virus vectors and chrispr are examples of this.

All manner of combinations of point mutations, as few as two, can create reproductive isolation. I suggest reading Speciation by Jerry Coyne and H. Allen Orr for an introduction to the process. Chromosomal mutations can also contribute, but of course you aren’t talking about mutations. You’re talking about species created de novo not to be compatible. All that’s needed there is for there not to be significant homology between species, or something so simple as lack of interest in mating. Why do you think changes in chromosome number of differences in gene complement are what God would prefer?

How would you know? You’ve never looked at any evidence.

If you mean atoms, that has nothing to do with similarity of genomes. Please, I beg you, think just a little bit before posting.

Why? What use does an omnipotent being have for efficiency? When you have infinite resources, conserving them makes no sense.

So you are positing a designer who isn’t God? Please set out your assumptions about the nature of the designer.

No it doesn’t. Where would you get such an absurd notion?

There are simpler ways to achieve reproductive isolation. Note that many species with the same chromosome numbers are reproductively isolated, and many populations with different chromosome numbers are not. And if you wanted to achieve isolation by changing chromosomes, it would not be necessary to have dozens of differences. Two or three would probably suffice.

Again, “purposeful” is the stumbling block here. Purpose is imported without evidence.

What does “efficient” mean here? Why is God interested in efficiency?

What does that have to do with the matter at hand? I beg you again, please think before posting, if that’s something you can do.

There are a myriad, as he very clearly wrote. Stop with the sealioning.

He didn’t say they would. Stop with the sealioning.

Then He is not omnipotent, obviously. This is why IDcreationism, in addition to being pseudoscience, is lousy theology.

Omnipotent beings have no need for efficiency. Evolution, BTW, is not efficient.

No, it’s showing the theological incoherence of your position.

Then the rare variations that have been observed should not have existed. That’s another failed empirical prediction of your ID hypothesis.

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None of us know enough about the overall plan to understand exactly why God chose the design path he did.

We have both discussed the evidence in the past an we have discussed papers that talk about the deleterious nature of mutations.

God needs a design strategy to deal with the limited resources of our universe. A shared code is simply part of that strategy. A limited resource universe also appears to be part of Gods plan.

The omnipotent being (from the human perspective) has a confined design of our universe to deal with. Your claim of infinite resources has no basis based on evidence of a universe that has constricted laws.

I am positing God as the designer. We don’t have insight into his overall plan.

It makes sense when you consider the design of the universe using a flexible single component. Why would God not use the same strategy in biology?

And this contradicts your point that chromosome mutations are not deleterious.

Not a stumbling block at all. It simply implies a function where re can assign a reason. The reason for the WNT pathway is partially to control the cell cycle.

Efficiency is what a design is all about. Do you have any examples of purposefully inefficient design.

It appears it is part of the design strategy is to have the design of our universe provide useful components for humans. This needs to be considered. A single genetic code allows bacteria with the same code to deliver DNA to human genomes. Biology is interdependent so compatibility like for most designs is important.

That means you can have no expectations of what divine design would look like and could make no predictions of what the data would show. You can’t test your hypotheses in any way.

You hae consistently misunderstood those papers. And have ignored others.

No it isn’t. A shared code is not a consequence of there being atoms. There is zero connection here. Please think better.

That has nothing to do with the resources we’re talking about here, i.e. design effort. God doesn’t need to put effort into design, so there’s no reason he would have to re-use parts. He could make up everything new every time, and it would be no more difficult for him than making everything the same. You still aren’t thinking.

Then you can know nothing about what to expect. Again, you avoid thinking about the implications of your statements. Please try to do better.

Why would he? This is not an argument.

That’s your imagination.

No, that’s the function. You’re just redefining “reason” to be the same thing as “function” and “purposeful” to be the same thing as “has a reason”, which leaves you with “an arrangement of parts that has a function”. Useless.

You are confusing two sorts of efficiency. We’re talking about efficiency of the design process, not efficiency of the resulting object. Design is not all about efficiency of design unless it’s to reduce the effort of design. A being who doesn’t care about effort has no interest in efficiency of design. Think.

Is that a good thing? What benefit do we derive? And how often does that happen? How much bacterial DNA is in your genome? I can’t think of any offhand.

Why is it important? Specifically, why is it important for bears, mushrooms, paramecia, hagfish, ladybugs, and oak trees to all have the same genetic code?

For the last time, I implore you to start thinking more about what you say.

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Then you have no model to test, it’s just special pleading. You are just rationalizing any pattern as something God would do given unknowable motives.

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Not wishing to detract from the rabbit hole du jour, but did we ever get any evidence that came within a light year of demonstrating that “all deer” might not “share a common ancestor”?

The last discussion of deer on this thread seems to have been more than two months ago.

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We have an expectation based on the work of human beings created in His image.

First you said I did not look at the papers and now you say I misread them.

The papers show that chromosomal mutations can be deleterious.

A shared code is evidence of a design strategy that minimizes components. A single component with the flexibility of assembling to human observers is also a design strategy that minimizes components. If God used a single component to create the universe why would he not use a single code to create biological life?

He may need to based on his ultimate objective.

How do you think expectations are generated? His overall plan is part of a theological study. Is it time to integrate theology and science?

Why did he is the better question. We can speculate why God did things and some of the answers are in the Bible and some are not. What is important is the evidence points to an intelligent creator.

No that’s the reason for the function. This is the criteria for purpose in Behe’s method. What you are attempting is to create a straw-man around the definition of ultimate purpose and not the purpose of a specific function.

You are making a claim about the nature of God again. How did you come up with this claim?

One benefit is gene editing which is now being used to replace a missing exon and treat spinal muscular atrophy (SMA) in children.

As in the case of childhood SMA one purpose for code compatibility is it allows us to more easily help improve biological problems we encounter.

We have another model to test and that is the separate origin of species. This is a discussion of the how and not the why.

The different chromosome counts and the different gene patterns are an indication they do not all share a common ancestor.

So you have asserted Bill. But as you have provided no math demonstrating the impossibility of “different chromosome counts and the different gene patterns” under common descent, your conclusion is nothing but a non sequitor.

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That contradicts your previous statement that “we don’t have insight into his overall plan”. You have to pick one. This, like everything else you say, is an excuse of the moment, to be trotted out when convenient and forgotten when not. This is not helpful.

Can be. Other papers we have brought up (and you have generally ignored) show that they can be nearly neutral.

But “we don’t have insight into his overall plan”. Nor does a single code minimize components, since different codes have no more components than the “universal” code.

Word salad again.

But “we don’t have insight into his overall plan”. He used a single code except when he didn’t. He uses an efficient design process except when he doesn’t. All you have is a rotating set of excuses that make everything we see just what we would expect. But it’s all an a posteriori assemblage of mutually inconsistent claims.

But “we don’t have insight into his overall plan”. Now we don’t have insight into what he needs to do either. Does an omnipotent being need to do anything?

I think your expectations are generated simply as excuses to “explain” what we happen to see. If genetic codes are the same, that’s God being efficient. If chromosome structures are different, that’s God having an unknown purpose. Same, different, it’s all part of the unknowable plan. The only expectation is that whatever we see, it’s what God did. Useless. Integrating theology and science results in the destruction of science.

It’s a question that assumes a fact not evidenced.

You can’t say that, because you have no prior expectation of what an intelligent creator would do.

All “purpose” means there is “function”. Sorry. The purpose of the Wnt pathway is to perform its function. That’s all you have said.

Standard theology. God is said to be omnipotent, as well as omniscient and omnibenevolent. Do you disagree? You are of course free to posit a different God, but you do need to make that explicit. What is your God like? Then we can come up with predictions of what the data should look like. You have previously hinted that God may have limitations similar to those of human designers. But when one makes predictions on that basis you deny that we can know anything about him.

There’s no need to have the same genetic code in order to do that. Try again, and please start actually answering my questions rather than ignoring them.

Too vague to be meaningful, and your sole example so far isn’t true. Further, if it applied to anything at all (which it doesn’t) it would apply to a few species of bacteria. Try again, or perhaps admit that you were wrong.

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The very last thing in the world that armchair anti-evolutionists want to see is a positive, testable prediction about how a designer would operate. Because they could be wrong about a thing.

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Utterly, objectively false. Human designs are not like evolutionary designs unless humans choose an evolutionary algorithm to design for them.

Better to go along with it. If we have such an expectation, that expectation is strongly falsified. Therefore that sort of God does not exist.

Your asking what he would prefer which means we know why God did what he did.

Then you jump to.

It does not mean we have no expectation of what Devine design would look like. We build expectations when we learn about the universe.

Nearly neutral has not been shown. The likely deleterious nature of chromosomal mutations in mice which one of the papers showed was overshadowed by fast reproduction rates and short life spans.

We have evidence based on what we know about the makeup of the current universe.

Atoms…molecules…cells…eukaryotic cells…multicellular …vertebrates…mammals…primates…humans. All made up of atoms. How do you propose this original component (atom) came into existence with the ability to make all these different animal types?

We have a cohesive design based on solid principles of building on the fundamental principal of atoms. A design strategy humans are moving toward with innovations like the internet and block chain.

This is a speculation and does not help us understand what God did.

We are in the first inning of understanding at this point. The breakthrough Behe and others made is showing the evidence we can infer intelligence behind the design. This makes the multiple origin model, a model that better fits the current data, viable.

Answered above.

The argument defines its function. The purpose of the bacterial flagellum motor is to aid in bacterial mobility. This is very different than saying the purpose of the bacterial flagellum motor is to perform its function.

What exactly is meant by this? What are your Biblical references that support this?

How would you do this with a different genetic code? How would a virus be reliably generated?

Do you consider someone who is skeptical about universal common descent an anti-evolutionist?

Based on your argument requiring the alternative argument “separate origin” to prove a single origin false you have conceded that a single origin of deer is most likely false.

At the end of the day the single origin argument needs to show how populations can change gene patterns to the magnitude we are seeing in the various Venn diagrams plus the change in chromosome patterns. Current population genetics models are very limited based on known mechanisms.

The burden is with the single origin claim because the multiple origin claim does not require the populations to change gene patterns and chromosome counts beyond the point of creation.

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Never puts forth a positive design prediction… as ducks do too. And I’d say skeptical about far more than universal common descent. How about deer? Or humans and monkeys? Skeptical about just about anything with regard to facts and mechanisms in biological history.

Reasonable skepticism differs immensely from JAQing off.

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Blatantly wrong Bill.

Your original claim, which was what I was disputing, makes no mention of "the alternative argument “separate origin’”:

You are simply trying wildly, and ineptly, to escape from the corner you have painted yourself into.

“At the end of the day”:

  1. Venn diagrams show only highly summarised information, and so do not show the level of detail necessary to disprove Common Descent.

  2. “The magnitude” can only be elucidated by the math – otherwise all you have is your (thoroughly inexpert) ‘it looks big to me’ – to which others, with more experience in such things, can simply reply ‘it doesn’t look that big to us’.

  3. Your assertions about population genetics models are completely undercut by your apparent inability to marshal any population genetics model to support any of the cases you have been arguing about.

"At the end of the day … " Bill Cole appears to have nothing to support his argument except assertion and sealioning.

No Bill.

You were the one who made the claim:

Therefore the burden is on you and only you to support this claim by presenting the relevant math that supports how “the different chromosome counts and the different gene patterns” indicates that “they do not all share a common ancestor.”

Lacking such math supporting your claim, I am perfectly justified in concluding that we have indeed received no evidence that came within a light year of demonstrating that “all deer” might not “share a common ancestor”.

This, I think answers my original question. :slight_smile:

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