“…especially deer.” It’s these little touches that make Bill so entertaining.
How did the dark peppered moth phenotype take over during the industrial revolution?
If the null mutation is deleterious, individuals who suffer it are having more trouble surviving and reproducing. So when it crops up, it is quickly lost again because carriers are worse off.
You should be able to figure this out. Should be.
Prove it. Provide that evidence then.
Prove it. Cite lots of papers where researchers used deep mutational scanning and diverse biochemical assays to test for alternative functions in biological proteins to see how many mutations it typically takes to find another function.
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As if deleterious means something else for deer. Bill is a 1-man cargo cult. I often show him off to friends and family members (true story).
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Yet the mutation is in the duplicated gene.
This you need to explain vs pivoting to a burden shift. The problem you have is 50% of the substitutions are deleterious. The gene will be either dead as a duplicate or it will be purged from the population.
Which is maintained by purifying selection. If a null mutation crops up in one of the genes being maintained by selection by an individual in the population, then it is generally not going to fixation.
You’re the one with a burden shift going on buddy. You claimed there was lots of evidence against my claim. Then cite it.
And try to keep track of the discussion please. You get easily confused.
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And the other half are neutral or beneficial. It’s those that accumulate.
If it suffers deleterious mutations, leaving those that don’t but instead suffer neutral or beneficial mutations.
Bill there’s a population. Different individuals get different mutations.
Half suffer deleterious.
The other half suffer neutral or beneficial.
The deleterious are lost.
The neutral or beneficials accumulate.
Rinse and repeat, the neutrals and beneficials build up in numbers over time.
Deleterious are continuously purged as they occur.
More and more and more mutations occur. Still half deleterious, the other half aren’t.
The half that isn’t deleterious still accumulate.
Generations pass, duplicate genes become more and more different. After hundreds of millions of years you get genes having diverged by hundreds of mutations.
A population. There is a population. There isn’t just one gene floating around in a vacuum. There is a population with hundreds of thousands or millions of individuals. They all get mutations. Some get mutations in the gene of interest. Half get deleterious ones, the other half don’t. The half that don’t don’t aren’t purged by selection.
Do I have to draw a figure for you so you can understand the concept of a population and selection and mutation at the population level?
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We agree.
I agree with neutral.
How are they lost?
There is a percentage of the population with a single neutral mutation.
Not if half the remaining alleles (with a single neutral mutation) suffer a deleterious mutation on the next mutation as according to your model half will.
Beneficial mutations in proteins don’t exist? At all?
Is this truly something that is beyond your comprehension?
Half, yes. And the other half won’t. You keep just ignoring the half that don’t.
Bill think. Think.
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Do you see as you add changes to the allele it continues to become purged from the population. With a population of 1 million species it takes about 20 mutations to that allele in the population for it to disappear.
Not even wrong.
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The deleterious ones, yes.
Let’s have you do the math here. Let’s say there’s 1 population of 1 million individuals, that about 1000 mutations are distributed among them, and that half of these are strongly deleterious. For simplicity let’s just say they’re lethal. The other half of those 1000 mutations are neutral.
Let’s say population size is constant (let’s say everyone produces 2 offspring), and that deaths are otherwise randomly distributed among the offspring, half of which die. Every new generation, 1000 mutations are distributed randomly among the 2 million offspring produced, the 500 that get lethal mutations are purged outright, and then 999500 deaths are distributed randomly among the remaining 1999500 individuals, leaving 1 million survivors. This repeats every generation.
Bill, take it away. Compute!
But Behe (and maybe Bill) starts with the ridiculous assumption that there is no existing variation.
In a strong field it’s one of the more confused and incoherent statements of Bill’s.
A population of 1 million species?
20 mutations to that allele in the population?
What is this?
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After 20 mutations to a specific allele across the population all the specific alleles in the population are likely to have at least 1 deleterious mutation.
Model it. Do the math.
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Wow you can take a number and divide it in half 20 times. Amazing. Truly beautiful.
That has nothing to do with the model I asked you to simulate:
Do that thing I describe. Not the idiotically divide a number in half model, the actual population genetics model.
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My model correlates with the probability of one member in the population getting 20 non deleterious mutations in a row. How does your model correlate with the probability of a single species 20 substitution non deleterious event?
How do you survive the swallowing reflex when you try to eat?
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Is this a model of something that can actually happen in nature, though? One member in the population acquiring mutations one after another? Can you cite something other than comic books in support of this… unconventional idea of how population genetics work? If so, please, do.
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