Does modern cosmology prove the existence of God?

It may be naïve to think that people will self-organized into a well-order community. Rather off-topic, but stringent policing is there worst way to moderate, IMO. There are gentler ways to influence discussion, such as trying to set a good example. In the long run gentle methods are far most effective than brute force fix-ups, because they are preventative.

Thank you for that.

I may have been rather bedazzled with Joshua’s description of the […] It doesn’t sound like there was any moderation required to achieve the ‘beautiful thing’ that Joshua referred to.

Videos discussions are very constrained in their format, unless you make a video of people in unformatted argument. :wink:

I take a broad view of “good” discussion. Even a fairly rowdy argument can have a good outcome in terms of two people coming to a greater understanding of each other. This is different from “winning or losing” an argument. It’s true that people often act as if argumentation is a Zero-Sum game, but there is a lot more to it than that. Some people will never change their minds for any reason, but if you watch carefully you might see them change their approach or drop certain opinions over time.

As my mother used to warn me, “Some people never change.” Discussion with such are never productive, but it might take a while to identify them.

AND now back to something resembling the original topic.

Have any atheists ever said anything not derogatory about anything ID?

Yes. there are atheist supporters of ID. Not a lot, but they exist.

There bigger problem here is the inherent self-contradiction:

  1. If ID is a scientific topic, then the atheist opinion carries no additional weight - scientific interpretation should be all that matters.
  2. If ID is a religious topic, then the opinion of the atheist may be relevant, but perhaps not useful.

If someone chooses to believe in a divine (or alien) Creator, then it doesn’t bother me, and I make this point occasionally. If someone is presenting their religious faith as scientific fact, then there are grounds to object both on religious and scientific grounds.

In practice many ID supporters prevaricate, first trying to make a scientific case, then switching to the religious side when faced with criticism. Every scientific idea should have potential for criticism built in to it - that questions should be testable and at least theoretically falsifiable. Proponents of ID mostly fail to define any way that ID could ever be disproven. Most often they may claim that some proof of evolution would disprove ID, but such proof still doesn’t rule out design that looks like evolution.

The question remains: What evidence could possibly disprove ID?

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The objective fact regarding ID is that it is pseudoscience. So your pessimism is unfounded. Few people feel the need to say nice things about pseudoscience.

No, one ought not be warranted to think any such thing.

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I don’t think the thought of what you think I think someone else thinks is worthy of thought.

:laughing:

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Would it alter your opinion to find that Shapiro is considered a bit of a crackpot by most evolutionary biologists? I’m not sure whether he’s an atheist. Do you know?

Have you managed to conflate theists with IDers? Not a good idea.

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I don’t see how Craig being a lot more respectful and erudite in that video somehow exonerates him for past egregiously misleading analyses of counter-arguments. It appears Craig has an uncanny ability to switch back and forth between two radically opposed approaches to discourse. In one situation Craig appears to basically put on a sort of act (fundamentalist debate-mode Craig) and become almost clinically dyslexic in his inability to comprehend an opponents argument (like he did with TBS about 10 years ago), by some times giving interpretations to his opponents words that are diametrically opposite to what they are literally saying. In other instances it appears he can genuinely reflect on ideas and concepts. It’s really quite weird.

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He didn’t actually “best” anyone in that video. It was a good discussion, and while they did disagree on some matters and offered points and counter-points, it was more an exploration of Craig’s views on a topic, not really a debate.

I have to assume there’s just a “some” missing there in the beginning of that sentence, given your earlier praise of Alex O’Connor.

I think we can both agree there are people on both sides of this age-old question who think of everyone on the opposite as fools. To be fair, your holy book explicitly says I am one (and much worse), so some part of me have to wonder whether you think it’s right to say that, and if you do, do your complaints about how atheists think of theists not make you a hypocrite?

And perhaps more interestingly, if you don’t, doesn’t that imply you think the Bible is wrong about some atheists? Are some parts of the Bible not God’s word, or inspired? How do you tell?

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I can say something positive about flat-earthers: they are up-front and clear about their motives and opinions, and don’t try to hide their actual views and goals behind misleading terms intended to circumventing legal restrictions against teaching religious views as fact.

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Does a reply to an email from a phone make it onto the board?

I don’t actually know the answer to this, but am curious to know. I suspect not.

How is that even a question? The answer is obvious: Yes, there are atheists who have said something not derogatory about something ID. On this very forum. Yes, those instances are few and far between to be sure(just as I’m sure to anyone pro-ID it can feel like it never happens at all), but that is frankly because most of the ideas advanced by ID proponents are not actually ideas about the concept of intelligent design(the actual philosophical concept, not the religious-political movement), but rather extremely ill-conceived objections to evolution.

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Good point, he is impressed by WLC’s ability to not make a fool of himself while talking to an undergrad. Consider the bar pushed below ground.

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Thanks for your reply.
I just get email notifications about responses to my post, but have no way of responding. I’m away for a few days and don’t even know a password.
Cheers.

I would also point out that a fair number of theists, and especially theist scientists, aren’t particularly flattering about ID either.

I cannot help but think that @Sam is being unrealistic in equating “positive discussions between people of very different views” with “atheists ever said anything not derogatory about anything ID”.

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If you have been replying to an email, it is successfully posting to the board.

Well, yes. Criticizing malignant pseudoscience like ID Creationism isn’t just the province of atheists, by any means. In fact, it would be rather insulting – and inaccurately so – to theists to suggest that only atheists are clear-headed enough to see the obvious sketchiness and outright lying which characterize ID Creationism.

If the test of “objectivity” is going to be that a person can’t distinguish between dishonest, malignant pseudoscience and actual science, then “objectivity,” so defined, is garbage.

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I think @Sam was conflating ID with theism more generally – with the obvious false conclusion that only atheists could be against it.

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Sam, just to be clear about where you’re starting from on this, would you say that the following statement is true, false, or not known?

ID proponents and evolutionary biologists are looking at all the same evidence, only interpreting it differently.

TIA!

“Does modern cosmology prove the existence of God?”

Tricky question and the answer is maybe. However science is a collection of facts and theories, and the latter might just not be true.

Even the most successful theories, like QFT, might in principle be just a mathematical artefact that explains observations, but might lack the explanatory power at an ontological level.

Most scientists are just happy with a “shut up and calculate” attitude. Others try to go behind QM and QFT and you get all sorts of interpretations.

So any philosophical argument that has his foundation in scientific theories is like a house on sand, since one day such theories might be obsolete.

No need.

No natural explanation can be the first cause. That is thoroughly explained by WLC… but also anyone who has put forward any cosmological argument.