Does OOL research need a disclaimer?

So, it is OK for people without training, or any supporting evidence to spout silliness, and I need to “comment” beyond the obvious topics in the very titles of those articles?

Life didn’t happen very fast at all.
The oldest evidence for clement conditions (eg. liquid water) was over 4.3 billion years ago;
The oldest known evidence for life was about 3.7 to 3.8 billion years ago; These sediments were re-dated to >3.8 Ga.
Then, there was very little new “complexity” until the “Great Oxidation Event” about 2.5 billion years ago. (Trace oxygen possible ~2.5 Ga, or one billion years after the onset of oxygenic photosynthesis), (Good review as of 2005. Bottom line; geological and biological factors were about equally important to the global oxidation state 2.7 to 2.4 Ga).

That seems to be fairly clear to me.
Edited to add: Specifically the posts by “Ashwin_s Indian Engineer” demanded citations to the literature. I gave a tiny handful.

And thanks for the welcoming.

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@colewd,

Because it is easy to teach the rudiments of Origins of Life in this way … not because it is provable.

Please do not become truculent over this matter. It is obvious enough that one cell is simpler than multiple cells.

But can you precisely tell me that a one celled algae is more or less complex than an amoeba? Can you precisely tell me that a Euglena with a single flagellum is more complex than a Paramecium with hundreds of cilia?

You have no criteria for complexity… you simply limp from level to level, like a cripple, hoping to catch your breath at the next obvious level.

In any case, this group isn’t even charged with answering Origins of Life questions. So please stop playing the Difficult Danny here.

Please take your instruction when it is offered fairly, sincerely and accurately.

A random walk in the space of complexity can’t go below zero, so the only other direction is up. If going up is more difficult than going down in that space, then the general trend should be to retain simplicity, with some rare occasional offshoots towards greater complexity when and if that is adaptive. That is, in fact, what we see.

Most of life has remained as simple as it appears possible, manifesting essentially as internal genetic parasites like viruses and selfish DNA/RNA such as introns and other forms of transposons, while some few offshoots have increased in complexity.

It should be noted that viruses, which are so simple many biologists don’t even consider them a form of life, is also the most abundant semi-biological phenomenon for lack of a better term. The 2nd-most abundant biological phenomenon, while complex enough to be considered life, are bacteria, the simplest form of life known.

Complex life did evolve, but it is a bit of an anomaly in terms of the number of lineages that have evolved increased complexity. It is also noteworthy that most genetic complexity in terms of the amount of genetic material, is actually junk DNA, and there seems to be no obvious relationship between multicellular organismal complexity(whether measured by number of cell types, their methods or types of interaction, or spatial arrangements) and genome size.

To explain the relatively few lineages that became complex really doesn’t require any more than a random walk in complexity space. The organisms that became complex(plants, animals, other multicellular eukaryotes) also became spatially large and macroscopic, and adapted to basically any enviroment, so it feels like they are everywhere and the most dominant form of life just because we are them and can see them everywhere around us. But most life, in terms of the number of individuals and the number of lineages, and the amount of time it has persisted, viruses, selfish DNA, and prokaryotes, is and has remained relatively simple for it’s entire known history.

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I can see that you’re adopting the right kind of language here. Now to prove evolution, all that remains to do is to connect this language to a robust mathematical framework. Preferarbly with a suitable feedback mechanism.

Where do you think this logic fails:

  1. the vast majority of developmental pathways are dead ends.
  2. going down a different path requires backing out many-many steps.
  3. the scope of evolution is limited, such that no evolutionary process is able to grasp more than a small number of steps.

The first two statemens are empirically being tested and confirmed every day in every laboratory on earth. I don’t know if there is a formal mathematical theory to describe this, but 1. and 2. are altogether true as true can be. 3. is a conjecture, but if this conjecture is true, then evolution is false. And the thing is that it is a reasonable conjecture.

Typing “Barkeley” (or “Bsrkeley”, etc) instead of “Berkeley” is a typo.

Typing “Baylor” instead of “Berkeley” isn’t.

Unless you want us to believe to aimed for the ‘a’ and ‘y’ keys and hit the ‘e’, ‘r’ and ‘k’ keys instead, then managed to catch the ‘o’ while reaching for the ‘e’?

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What does it mean to “prove evolution”? What am I being asked to prove, and to prove you mean provide good evidence for, right?

Where do you think this logic fails:

  1. the vast majority of developmental pathways are dead ends.

I don’t know what a dead end in a developmental pathway is. Are you talking about developmentally lethal mutations and are you saying the vast majority of mutations that affect developmental pathways are lethal? If not, please clarify.

  1. going down a different path requires backing out many-many steps.
  2. the scope of evolution is limited, such that no evolutionary process is able to grasp more than a small number of steps.

Before the rest of this can be analyzed I need for you to answer and clarity things in response to my questions above.

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What do I get by putting up a link of Berkeley and claiming it’s from Baylor?

I was typing from a mobile… don’t know exactly how Baylor ended up there instead of Berkeley.

I have already said I meant Berkeley.
What point do you want to make?

Evolution, like all of science, can’t be proven. Truths in science are always provisional.

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That too many people try to excuse mistakes as just typing errors.

On the other hand, it is possible that a device with an evil spell checker will replace a misspelled Berkeley with something previously typed that passes muster (such as Baylor). I know my iPad would do this in a heartbeat.

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This has happened to me often… don’t know of it happened in this particular case. All I can say is I accepted it was an error and corrected it when @Timothy_Horton pointed it out to me…
Should have been the end of the matter.

And one can just flat out misremember a name. Like when I wrote the name Billy Graham around here, but I meant Benny Hinn and those two names are at best vaguely similar, but people were having heart attacks over it.

It happens.

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Wouldn’t we have to add the same disclaimer to every single conclusion in science? Science says that infections are caused by microorganisms, but there is also the possibility that God causes them. Science has concluded that the electromagnetic force is governed by photons, but God could do it also. A forensic scientist finds a DNA match between DNA at the crime scene and the suspect, but the forensic scientist can’t conclude anything because God could have put the DNA there.

We could put “God did it” as a possibility for every single conclusion in science, so why are you focused so strongly on origin of life issues?

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I am not asking for that kind of disclaimer. I have quoted the disclaimers/clarifications given in the Indiana article.
They don’t make any mention of God.

The technical term (or not-so-technical term) for that is “thinko”.

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No I think I said it correctly. Even with good evidence you need a robust mathematical framework to be able to interpret the evidence.

I’m trying to develop a robust and easy to understand language for discussing evolution. So far as I understand it, the forces of evolution are such that at best they are or should be able to shape the structure of a gene, or some kind of a molecular structure that has a function analogous to a gene. For the sake of discussion I want to say that all such objects are genes, and that evolution is able to shape genes either individually or collectively. Another way to say this is that over the course of evolution each gene traces a trajectory in some abstract space of all possible changes. So if evolution is true, then we should be able to show that evolutionary pressures are able to cause some genes to go down a trajectory. This is the mental image I had when asking about developmental pathways. The thing is this way we should be able to compare say the developmental trajectory of writing an article with the developmental trajectory of designing a new car with the developmental trajectory that a gene may take.Having such a model of changes in a genome over time allows us to reason about the forces that caused the observed changes.

The question at hand: I think I just want to see how these genetic developmental patways look like, and I want to be able to reason about them without getting bogged down into the nitty-gritty. I want to be able to compare them to examples of artificial developments.

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Autofill and autocorrect are my worst enemas. (Maybe you need one. :stuck_out_tongue:)

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I’m sorry but you’re making less and less sense. First you write that in order for me to “prove evolution” I need to connect “this language” to a “robust mathematical framework”. I ask for clarification about what you mean by “prove evolution”, both because I want to know what specifically you want me to prove (That evolution still happens? That evolution happened in the past? How evolution happens? That organism or structure or genetic sequence X evolved? your question is too vague), and because I also want to emphasize that in science nothing is “proved”, rather evidence is found for or against it.

I’m sorry but good luck with that. There is already an extensive scientific and biological vocabulary devoted to understanding evolutionary biology and it would be quite a bit of waste of time to come up with an entirely new one just for the purposes of this discussion. I’m afraid that you will either have to bother familiarizing yourself with that established vocabulary, or this discussion with get bogged down by coming up with new words and definitions for ages before we can even begin to talk about evolution. Scientists are already fully capable of discussing and assessing the mechanisms and evolutionary history of life using this vocabulary.

So far as I understand it, the forces of evolution are such that at best they are or should be able to shape the structure of a gene, or some kind of a molecular structure that has a function analogous to a gene. For the sake of discussion I want to say that all such objects are genes, and that evolution is able to shape genes either individually or collectively. Another way to say this is that over the course of evolution each gene traces a trajectory in some abstract space of all possible changes. So if evolution is true, then we should be able to show that evolutionary pressures are able to cause some genes to go down a trajectory. This is the mental image I had when asking about developmental pathways. The thing is this way we should be able to compare say the developmental trajectory of writing an article with the developmental trajectory of designing a new car with the developmental trajectory that a gene may take. Having such a model of changes in a genome over time allows us to reason about the forces that caused the observed changes. The question at hand: I think I just want to see how these genetic developmental patways look like, and I want to be able to reason about them without getting bogged down into the nitty-gritty. I want to be able to compare them to examples of artificial developments.

Just to clarify something you shouldn’t use the word development to describe the evolutionary history of some organism or genetic sequence. The word development is usually reserved to describe the process of maturation from a fertilized egg (zygote) to an adult multicellular organism. While the word evolution is the process of how populations of organisms change (genetically, physiologically, and behaviorally) and adapt to their environment over multiple generations. So they’re not the same thing.

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Look, your notions about genetics, and evolution, and math models, and statistics seem to be worse than rudimentary. They seem mostly wrong.

Evolution does not “shape genes.”

Wrong. Genes are DNA sequences that if copied to transfer RNA (tRNA), and the tRNA arrives at a Ribosome to be “translated” into an amino acid sequence, a particular product results. Evolution did not “shape the mutations.”

The modification of those genes happens in several different ways. If the resulting modified result is noxious, the organism with that gene dies.

That is rather “robust.”

Try reading an actual example.

“Acceleration of Emergence of Bacterial Antibiotic Resistance in Connected Microenvironments” Qiucen Zhang, Guillaume Lambert, David Liao, Hyunsung Kim, Kristelle Robin, Chih-kuan Tung, Nader Pourmand, Robert H. Austin, Science 23 September 2011: Vol. 333 no. 6050 pp. 1764-1767

“It is surprising that four apparently functional SNPs should fix in a population within 10 hours of exposure to antibiotic in our experiment. A detailed understanding of the order in which the SNPs occur is essential, but it is unlikely that the four SNPs emerged simultaneously; in all likelihood they are sequential (21–23). The device and data we have described here offer a template for exploring the rates at which antibiotic resistance arises in the complex fitness landscapes that prevail in the mammalian body. Furthermore, our study provides a framework for exploring rapid evolution in other contexts such as cancer (24).

Review the top points of real science at work; Multi-site mutations, functional mutations, only TEN HOURS, why sequential mutations are functional, and more likely, and with medical applications.

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That would be messenger-RNA, mRNA, not tRNA.

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