ENV: Behe and Swamidass Debate Evolution and Intelligent Design at Texas A&M

So, let’s recapitulate, as Haeckel would say.

I asked, back in message 28 whether anyone could say that this statement by Axe was consistent with competence and honesty:

“The current stance is that evolution was so successful that it perfected life to the point where modern forms no longer evolve, making the whole process even further removed from the category of observable phenomena.”

This statement is so absurd that when I had first given the quote, without cite, @swamidass reacted by asking for the citation and asking whether he’d really said it. It does have the feel of being some sort of hideous mischaracterization of Axe, mounted for the mere purpose of slander; but he really did say it.

To my astonishment, Giltil took up the challenge, and then Paul Nelson jumped in. The sum total of their efforts:

(1) Pierre-Paul Grasse, now dead 35 years, did not believe this, but did think evolution had slowed down.
(2) Some biologists have remarked that evolutionary rates can vary over time.

How many biologists claim that evolution has stopped? Zero. Not Tawfik, the only person whose work Axe cites on the point; not anyone at all. Not Grasse, not any of those cited by Nelson (including Gould, who actually was saying that some observed rates in modern creatures were FASTER than past rates).

Now, it might be possible – perhaps by draining the water from the biology department at Liberty University and seeing what jumps out – to find some relict creature somewhere which would make this claim. But that isn’t what Axe is claiming. Axe is claiming that this is “the current stance” of evolutionary biologists. This is obviously not only untrue, but flagrantly so.

Now, where does that leave Axe? He has attributed absurd views to his critics. He has published these misstatements to a popular audience that he knows will be unfamiliar with the biological consensus. He has, in the course of the same book, advised that audience that it need not trouble itself with technical details, because just “knowing” things like this and relying upon a religiously-driven intuition is enough to decide the issue.

We speak in law of the badges of fraud: one cannot usually prove dishonesty directly, because the only direct testimony to dishonesty is the admission of the fraudster himself. Here we have a false statement. It is not plausible that Axe thought it was true. Indeed, in the other occurrence of a similar version of the statement, he purports to be specifically characterizing the views of his critics, and names one such critic. He cannot be unaware that this statement is completely false as characterizing his critics, as characterizing the one critic he names, and as characterizing the stance of evolutionary biologists in general.

So, we have Axe’s actual knowledge of falsity. Any suggestion that Axe is not sufficiently competent in the English language to have fallen under the impresion that the statement is true is not credible.

We have knowledge of his audience. He knows his audience to be science-illiterate. He encourages this, the whole thesis of his book being that reliance upon unschooled intuition is better than book-larnin’. He knows that his audience does not know what the scientific consensus looks like, and that the one paper he cites, which is exactly against him, is paywalled so that even the rare ID reader who seeks to look it up will need to go to a university library to find it.

We have motivation. Axe is struggling to make ID appear to have scientific credibility. Showing that scientists have supposedly adopted absurd views in response to his supposedly compelling research would enhance Axe’s reputation among this audience while harming the reputation of the scientific community as a whole.

When every last pointer points to Axe’s dishonesty, what is left?

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These two statements are definitely different, yes.

Except you can’t say why.

I can. And I am pretty sure that everybody here can, with some good will or good faith.

Obviously you can’t or you would do so.

Please explain any significant differences between Axe’s statement and the summary given by Rumraket.

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Honestly, I don’t see it. Please won’t you explain the difference?

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I’m kind of missing the material distinction here as well; these statements seem to say the same thing and are even pretty close in tone. Is it the word “supposedly” that possesses a connotation you object to? It would seem that Axe has sinned far more substantially in terms of misrepresenting the position of evolutionists.

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No. Gould was arguing that rate & scale of change are correlated; the small-scale changes we can directly observe in populations occur at higher (faster) rates precisely because they are small-scale. Crude analogy: the 120 Hz flicker rate of a florescent light fixture, invisible to human visual perception, would be useless as a clue to a detective on a stakeout (observing an apartment across the way), who is waiting for the same light to be shut off entirely by the suspect, as a deliberate action, which will happen once in a 6 hour interval. Different event, different rate, different scale.

From Gould’s article:

“…I suspect that most cases [of rapid small-scale change], such as the Trinidadian guppies and Bahamian lizards, represent transient and momentary blips and fillips…not the atoms of substantial and steadily accumulated evolutionary trends…Small local populations and parts of lineages make short and temporary forays of transient adaptation but almost always die out or get integrated into the general pool of species…One scale doesn’t translate into another.” (p. 64, my emphasis)

Fine. How does that help Axe establish that biologists claim that evolution has stopped? I take it you cannot defend that statement.

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Claim A: life has evolved to perfection and then stopped.
Claim B: evolution was so successful that it perfected life to the point where modern forms no longer evolve.

These two claims are different because saying that something is perfect is not the same thing as saying that something has been perfected to a certain point. In the former case, we are dealing with an absolute whereas in the latter we are dealing with a relative.

Why are you ignoring the fact that Axe also cites Marshall in addition to Tawfik on the same point?

Sorry but there’s no functional difference in saying something achieved perfection and something was so perfected it could no longer be improved. It’s saying the same thing.

That’s one of the weakest silly word games I’ve seen from a Creationist yet.

Do you now agree Axe’s claim is demonstrably false?

What specific point is Marshall cited to support, and can you give the particular reference?

You are wrong here. And the irony is that the concept that invalidates your claim, ie., local optima, has been bring forth by Rum here some time ago:
https://discourse.peacefulscience.org/t/what-is-a-hypothesis-according-to-intelligent-design-creationism/9205/545?u=giltil

He doesn’t cite a paper. He does reference Marshall’s book review of Darwin’s Doubt. And Marshall’s review doesn’t support his claim in the slightest, nor does Axe quote any portion of it that does. Are you claiming that Charles Marshall says in his review of Darwin’s Doubt that evolution has stopped? He makes no such statement, nor does he say anything that could remotely be construed as meaning that.

So let’s stop quibbling. The fact is that you are trying to show that Axe could have believed that the “current stance” of evolutionary biologists is that evolution has stopped. In your support you have pointed to one now-dead biologist who held a variety of unusual views, and who did NOT think evolution had stopped. It is fair to say that that is so far from carrying your point that it is an effective concession of the whole ground of dispute.

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The problem is Axe is claiming it is the current stance that this has happened to life in general, as opposed to some occasional and rare protein sequence.
“The current stance is that evolution was so successful that it perfected life to the point where modern forms no longer evolve.”

He’s not talking about the local optimum of alpha-actin-1 in vertebrates. He’s talking about life and modern forms.

It is certainly true that there are some enzymes that have evolved to maximum catalytic proficiency(they are turning over substrate as fast as it can diffuse to the active site). But a single protein, or an enzyme, does not constitute a lifeform. Nor can you extrapolate the rate of substrate turnover for an enzyme to a general property of the lifeform that encodes it in it’s genome.

It’s also misleading to bring up that point with respect to criticisms of Axe and Gauger’s attempt to convert one extant enzyme A functionally into another extant enzyme B related to A by common descent from enzyme C, because he’s insinuating that biologists are saying these two enzymes A and B are perfect (nobody has claimed this, it is NOT the current stance), that their evolution has stopped (nobody has claimed this either, it is ALSO NOT the current stance), or that natural selection cannot act upon them (surprise, nobody has claimed this either, it too is NOT the current stance). Everything the man says is egregiously misleading and demonstrably false. Which is why he never really quotes anyone saying these things, he’s just waving his hands in the direction of critics and then citing authors (which upon closer inspection fail to agree with him) to substantiate his own points.

Sorry mate but your bad excuses here are just not going to fly. Douglas Axe is a misleading, dishonest, incompetent propagandist. He’s loving your faith-dollars all the way to the bank though. That you can be sure of.

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I assume English isn’t your first language. Perfect is defined as something which can’t be improved upon. If it can be improved upon it’s not perfect. Having a species be at a local fitness optimum does NOT mean it’s been perfected to the point it can no longer evolve.

Face it, Axe told a big fat porky, end of story. Your knee-jerk defense of him is making you look as bad as he does.

Did you ever manage to figure out how speciation happens? I assume you now know why Stanford’s GE is dead wrong so gave up embarrassing yourself over that YEC nonsense.

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My best guess is that Axe spends very little time talking to biologists. So he is not acquainted with the way that they see evolution. He probably talks mainly with creationists and ID proponents, and he is taken what may well be the ID view and ascribed it to professional biologists. Perhaps he is unaware as to how out of touch he is.

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Well, maybe. But I find it hard to imagine that he’s actually that far out of touch. In this case, he is purporting to answer his critics, and one would think that he had read what those critics had to say.

He may have constructed in his own mind a kind of parody of those criticisms – this can happen in the law, too, but you quickly learn not to do it. ID is primarily argument and advocacy, not science, and as an advocate you learn that it’s very dangerous not to understand your opponent’s point of view on its own terms. You must go all the way “in” to the other point of view. You must follow all of its threads, build it up, examine it, and even, so far as you can, sympathize with and advocate it internally. You must ask, “if I had to argue that side, what would be my best course?” Until you have done that, you have no business arguing your own side, at least not as a professional advocate. The best answer to critics is to meet them on their own terms, or, if that cannot be done, demonstrate why their terms are wrong.

But the cheap and short way can be to construct a kind of parody of others’ views, and answer that. It happens in courtrooms, but not among the better advocates. It doesn’t work, unless one’s opponent is equally unskilled.

With as much controversy as people like Axe court, I have a hard time believing he doesn’t know what he’s doing. He probably would not make a statement like the ones quoted here in a scientific paper, because he undoubtedly knows these statements are not true. But an advocate who does not work before a skilled referee, and is instead arguing “in the wild,” may easily conclude, depending upon the audience, that dishonesty is the best policy.

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Why don’t you apply these wise advices to yourself ?
In a nutshell, here is what Axe said:
Anne Gauger and I have performed experimental work on two strikingly similar yet functionally distinct natural enzymes (let’s called them A and B) to see if one could evolve to work like the other. They conclude by the negative. Then he said that he is not aware of any critic having challenged that conclusion. Then he asks the following question : « How, you may wonder, can anyone believe that natural selection is incapable of such a tiny transformation while maintaining that it accomplished so many gargantuan ones? ». And then he reports the answer that evolutionists have given to that question, saying: « The current answer from evolutionists is that natural selection is a victim of its own success. That is, NS is now thought to have been so effective at tailoring organisms to their environment that it did reach end points - creatures so good at being what they are that they can no longer undergo evolutionary change ».
Now, it seems that you contest that evolutionists have given such an answer to Axe question. Okay. So I guess you know what answer they have given, right? Can you tell us what it is then?