Eric Holloway: Algorithmic Specified Complexity

[EricMH (Eric Michael Holloway)]

@swamidass

@EricMH, have you, Marks or anyone else in ID published any information theory grounded papers that solve real problems in biology? For comparison, almost every paper on my CV engages information theory as an engine for discovery. So I know this is certainly possible.

No, I do not believe so, and I agree this is a major problem. One could say it is because of persecution of pro-ID researchers in academia, which is certainly part of the issue. But, I think there has been too much focus on polemics and not enough focus on the science part.

My interest is the latter, I truly think ID says something important and unique, and which translates to useful science and technology. So I disagree with you here:

@swamidass

However, the way ID has applied information theory appears to be in obvious error to those of us using information to do useful things in biology. It seems that the abstract theory is understood, but knowledge how to correctly make use of it in biology is absent. Reviewing the publications of ID information theory leaders, it does not appear any of them has applied information theory to solve a real problem in biology.

The issue is you seem to repeatedly equate “lack of application” = “theory in error”. I used to think this was true, but now that I realize all the ID theory is well grounded, I think the answer is more complicated.

1. Part of it is that ID theory has actually already been applied to a great degree, but not recognized as such, and independently from the ID movement. So, the real problem is that ID is too correct, such that it is already applied, and the practically implications are already well understood and considered to be obvious and uninteresting.

2. The other part is ID can provide new insights, but those are harder to come by, and due to a combination of 1 and a commitment to materialism, progress in these new areas comes much more slowly. However, this is the most interesting area to me, and why Jonathan Bartlett and I published “Naturalism and Its Alternatives in Scientific Methodologies” and why I participate in Dr. Marks’ Mind Matters.

A final point that drives my interest is the ethical implications of ID and the investigation of intelligence. If we reduce to matter, as computer scientists assume, then this is an ethical solvent, humans have no value, and that’s why the scientific revolution has gone hand in hand with horrible atrocities. But, it is not merely a soft hearted matter of trying to save people. The psychopathic ubermensch would consider such motivations as irrelevant.

There is a pragmatic point, which is if humans are reducible to matter, then they can be replaced by machines, and the ubermensch will continue to have all their needs met. So, the ubermensch can wipe out humanity without a problem. However, if ID is correct, then humans can do something machines cannot: create information. In which case, regardless of the ubermensch nihilism and atheism, they’ll need to do their best to preserve humanity because the machines are insufficient for their desires.

So, ID is a trans-ethical argument, where it doesn’t even matter if the polemics convince someone or not, it is like the law of gravity which even a complete nihilist needs to observe if he wants to fly a plane or cross a ravine.

Which results in the somewhat ironic position that societies that reject ID are less fit than those that accept ID, and will become naturally deselected.

@swamidass

So, in a nutshell, information theory tells us that because I wrote this post, we can know God exists and humans have immortal, immaterial souls.

In a nutshell, that is the crux of the problem. This, to me, is equivalent to claiming that because 1+1=3, we can know God exists and that we have souls. I believe the latter, but dispute the former.

But isn’t it clear from what I said how the conclusion follows from the premises? It’s a pretty simple argument:

1. We can mathematically prove mutual information cannot be generated by determinism + randomness.
2. All natural processes consist of determinism + randomness.
3. Therefore, natural processes cannot produce mutual information.
4. Mutual information exists.
5. Therefore, something beyond determinism + randomness must exist.

It is a short step from 5 to get to the immaterial soul and the existence of God.