Evolution and Human Sexuality

Thanks for covering that point too. Didn’t have time to get into it.

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I must agree with Revealed Cosmology and Dr. Swamidas in rejecting Patrick’s analysis of Deuteronomy 22:28-29. I do understand how horrific a casual reading of the translated text can sound if one doesn’t understand the cultural circumstances. But the Torah is actually being very pro-woman and protective in this case. (I’ll not delve into the Hebrew text’s distinctions between forcible rape and “carnal knowledge by seduction”, etc. I’ve written long tomes on this topic in other venues and I don’t want to get bogged down here.)

Yes, the Torah demands execution of the “rapist” in some of the other passages. [I place “rapist” in quotes due to ambiguities which we recognize even in our day, such as some types of statuatory rape which can vary greatly between states in the USA.] Why not the death penalty for the man in this passage? While some might find that punishment satisfying in our day, Deut. 22:28-29 is much more concerned for the welfare of the young woman. Like it or not, ancient Near Eastern cultures were quite harsh towards a “sullied virgin”. Nobody would marry her—even if her “rapist” was executed and her innocent victimhood agreed by all. She would have been left without a husband to protect her and to ensure her financial survival. (After all, she couldn’t get employment and support herself, let alone any child who might arise from the union.) She would have thereby been left childless for life, and thereby without children and grandchildren to care for her in old age. Forcing the man to pay a HUGE fine (50 shekels is an enormous sum) would basically mean that the man was a lifelong slave to the woman’s father—because virtually nobody had that kind of money in those days. Not being able to pay a penalty meant having to sell oneself to lifelong servitude.

Anyone who has studied the culture of those times would tell you that (1) the penalty described in Deut 22:28-29 would have been a huge deterrent, and that (2) the woman who was the victim in such situations would have eagerly demanded and would have certainly preferred this sentence over anything we might devise today. (I can also say that how our society tends to treat many women in similar circumstances in our day is far more horrifically unjust and uncaring than what the Torah demanded.)

It is hard to be both concise and fair with this topic. But I will leave it at that unless this is a topic deemed deserving of its own thread. And like others here, I find the appeal to morality in protesting Deut 22:28-29 quite fascinating.

Personal note: Early in my career I was quite troubled (even horrified) by a great many of the Torah laws. But after years of ANE (Ancient Near Eastern) studies and Hebrew lexicography, I found the number of troubling passages evaporating, one by one. This has continued even into my senior years, such as with my research into the “tokens of virginity” (aka “virginity testing”) in the Torah, which had always struck me as nothing but ancient superstitions contrary to medical science. Only very recently have I come to the conclusion that this was actually a very pragmatic and important protection for falsely accused women whose husbands simply wanted to casually discard them. I expect many to disagree with me but just as when I was a scientist long ago, I must work with the available evidence. So I no longer judge the text as harshly as I once did because my judgments were largely from ignorance of the Hebrew passages and the culture.

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I really don’t see how the passage is saying that rape is wrong. And the “they are discovered” part alludes to “consensual rape”? My understanding of the culture then, was that woman, wives, daughter were property of the male head of household. So these laws were consistent with that.

Nevertheless, I think we agree that this was the moral, ethical, and legal standard for this culture and that time. They probably felt that it was just, proper, for their society and their beliefs of that time. I also agree that it is not fair for me in 2018 America to judge that culture, society harshly because they were not privy to 2500 years of moral, ethical, and legal changes. But given that we all live in present day America where morality, ethics and values are changing drastically within our lifespan, why use the morals, ethics, and values of an ancient Middle Eastern people to frame the discussion on ever changing morals, ethics, and values today?

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Yes, I agree. The passage is more in the caught having sex category than a violent rape. Yes, the original language and culture time period is the proper way to interpret its meaning and context.

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Thank you for this. It is very informative and very enlightening. Sitting here on the internet in 2018, we are too judgmental of people in the past. They were very intelligent thoughtful people really creating their cultural while living in that culture. An ANE culture of 2500 years ago would look strange and tremendously advanced to a hunter gatherer cultural of 10,000 Years ago. I am sure our grandchildren will question our generation’s handing of today’s culture and society.

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3 posts were split to a new topic: The RTB Science-Scripture Integration

I entirely agree. This is not to say that there is no right or wrong in sexual ethics. There is. It is not, however, a simple transposition of OT text to the present day that is to be our guide.

The tragedy, @Patrick, is that the Christian voice in the American public square has been defined by grasps for power, and by what it opposes. It has become, very often, about imposing rules on other people. This is that faith that I found false. It is the faith that you rightly reject.

Personally, I found something much greater than this in Jesus. I saw him clearly, and he was much greater than that false faith in which I was raised. Honestly, if not for that, I would most likely be an atheist. Unless I lacked courage when it came down to it.

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It takes the most courage to go with your own convictions than the easiest path.

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