Giordano Bruno: A Martyr, Yes, but Not for Science

@PdotdQ

That was an extremely distorted way to respond to this question. Any reader unfamiliar with the topic would conclude that Copernicans were convinced by theology that stars were massive. I’m sure this is not how you intended your statement to be interpreted.

Because the observors of the time, even those with the keenest eye sight, literally had a consistent perception of stars having a diameter… which had more to do with atmospherics than reality.

The perception of stars having diameter was so vivid and persistent, the belief continued on well into the 1700’s. Here is a wiki article discussion on the science of stars having perceived diameter from the viewpoint of an Earthling:

" Tycho had determined that a typical star measured approximately a minute of arc in size, with more prominent ones being two or three times as large.[10] In writing to Christoph Rothmann, a Copernican astronomer, Tycho used basic geometry to show that, assuming a small parallax that just escaped detection, the distance to the stars in the Copernican system would have to be 700 times greater than the distance from the sun to Saturn. "

“Moreover, the only way the stars could be so distant and still appear the sizes they do in the sky would be if even average stars were gigantic—at least as big as the orbit of the Earth, and of course vastly larger than the sun.”

"(As a matter of fact, most stars visible to the naked eye are giants, supergiants, or large, bright main-sequence stars.) And, Tycho said, the more prominent stars would have to be even larger still. And what if the parallax was even smaller than anyone thought, so the stars were yet more distant? Then they would all have to be even larger still.[11] Tycho said:

“Deduce these things geometrically if you like, and you will see how many absurdities (not to mention others) accompany this assumption [of the motion of the earth] by inference.”[12]

"Copernicans offered a religious response to Tycho’s geometry: titanic, distant stars might seem unreasonable, but they were not, for the Creator could make his creations that large if he wanted.[13] In fact, Rothmann responded to this argument of Tycho’s by saying:

“[W]hat is so absurd about [an average star] having size equal to the whole [orbit of the Earth]? What of this is contrary to divine will, or is impossible by divine Nature, or is inadmissible by infinite Nature? These things must be entirely demonstrated by you, if you will wish to infer from here anything of the absurd.”

This thread continues to abound with ironies.

Copernicus appeals to religious principles - - not because the religious ideas were what convinced him that stars were massive. He uses religious interpretation to as the last remaining rationalization for why giant stars should not be seen as an impediment.

On the other side of the issue, Tycho also resorted to religious defenses … but in a qualitatively different way:

“Religion played a role in Tycho’s geocentrism also—he cited the authority of scripture in portraying the Earth as being at rest. He rarely used Biblical arguments alone (to him they were a secondary objection to the idea of Earth’s motion) and over time he came to focus on scientific arguments, but he did take Biblical arguments seriously.[15]

While Copernicus lands a perfectly solid counter-jab (by asking what is it about massive stars that you find to be impossible), Tycho seriously believes Biblical texts about the immobility of the Earth are sufficient grounds to reject a heliocentric model!

The similarities to our own little discussion groups here is amusing similar! While Creationists argue that the Biblical text argues against Evolution, @swamidass and I argue (and I believe more credibilty) there is no logical or theological reason for Evolution to be dismissed as “impossible” - - if, in fact, God chooses to use Evolution as one of his tools of creation!

Motions of planets and the sun is equivalent under transformation of coordinates between Tychonic and heliocentricsm, not motion with respect to the fixed stars that is being probed by stellar parallax. You can find more details in these types of coordinate transformations in many freshman physics texts.

The Copernicans claim that all the other stars except for the Sun is much larger than the Sun.

I believe Earth doesn’t rotate in Tychonian systems. Everything else rotates around it.

Regardless, your objections [1], [2], and [3] to geocentric systems are bunked, while Tycho’s rejection to the Copernican system is still solid. Even if his rejection is not solid, this just moves the situation to two competing model with no evidence to distinguish between them. In this case, it is still wrong on scientific grounds to say that heliocentrism is definitely right and geocentrism definitely wrong.

If you read your own source,

While Tycho takes the Biblical arguments seriously, it is secondary arguments to him. His ground for rejecting a heliocentric model is scientific.

Have we established that this isn’t a theological assumption?

So where’s your transformation of coordinate systems now? Where’s your equal simplicity of explanation now? It seems to me that rotation of the earth in the Copernican system, if nothing else, makes it superior.

@PdotdQ

Do you think you are in some kind of high school forensic club? I don’t appreciate the way you twist your words around without warrant, but how you do it to me, and to legitimate sources as well.

For example, you write:

This is a flat-out fiction. Items [1], [2], and [3] - - each in their turn - - refuted some ancient misconception. But I will agree with you that they didn’t refute all of them. The Geocentrists would simply move the goal post from the “ancient” locations, and show how they could design a new system that could fit Galileo’s observations with a newly minted Geocentric system.

You manage to carve out some breathing space with this agile narrative:

Yes. I acknowledge that. And this continued long after Galileo was dead, despite the constantly improving equipment being developed each decade!

@PdotdQ, this should start to give you a sense of how religious defenses become ever more inventive in ways to retain the status quo for some misconception. And this is exactly why the title of this thread is incorrect: Galileo became a martyr for science, but not to the point of flames.

No doubt Galileo was stunned to find opponents so willing to build ever-more elaborate constructions (despite Occam’s Razor) … not because there was evidence for any of these new or additional crystal spheres and their mysterious epicycles … but purely to retain an increasingly fanciful and brittle metaphysical construct !

I see that you intentionally came into this threat with the idea of exploiting the fact Galileo could not deliver a “knock out” punch with his view of heliocentrism. But you and I both know that with the state of science and instrumentation in Galileo’s time, nobody could have delivered such a knock-out blow.

Now that this is more clearly rendered in these recent postings, you should probably state a retraction that Galileo was somehow “making a mountain out of a mole hill instead of pursuing science” (I use quotes to indicate paraphrasing, not because I think you said these words exactly).

This statement of yours is a gem:

Copernicus invoked the majesty of God to argue that there is no reason the Universe can’t have massive stars. I think we all have to agree (setting aside the Atheists and Agnostics) that the conventional view of Christianity is consistent with Copernicus’ pleading.

Conversely, Tycho’s purportedly “solid” rejection was in fact just a brow-beating: “massive stars are ridiculous”. And if we are going to be honest, I think you will have to agree that this kind of refutation is so far off-base, how can we even measure its degree of error?

My main point?:

Between Tycho and Galileo, Galileo is the one actually practicing science. Tycho is practicing metaphysics. And this continues until finally the technology and precision of the technology is achieved that definitively puts the epicycle argumentations more or less out of business!

That jives with what I have read. Cardinal Bellarmine oversaw Galileo’s inquisition, and this is what he wrote:

Considering Copernicus’ as an abstract academic matter was fine, just as long as you didn’t go further and say that it was true in reality. The phrase “fig leaf” comes to mind.

I don’t know, have we? To me this sounds a lot like saying that the Earth-Sun system is special.

What do you mean? Going to a rotating frame of reference is a coordinate change that does not change the simplicity of a system: they still have the exact same number of parameters. To be honest, I think we just have a different definition of simplicity.

Historically, the competition is between Tychonic and Copernican systems, not Ptolemaic and Copernican systems. All the rebuttals I gave to [1], [2], and [3] are those that are available to Tychonic astronomers of the past.

Again I have no motive for any “religious defenses”. You keep on trying to ascribe imaginative motives to me.

This thread is about Bruno, Galileo came later because you and John brought them up. I did not mention Galileo before either of you did.

Do you understand how Occam’s Razor works in modern science? For Tychonic and geocentric systems have the same number of parameters, Bayesian Occam’s Razors cannot distinguish between them based on complexity alone.

Again, I came to this thread to talk about Bruno. I did not mention Galileo before it was mentioned by others.

Exactly, so back then, there is not enough data to distinguish between heliocentrism and geocentrism. Ergo, pushing that heliocentrism is absolutely correct is not scientific.

You have not sufficiently demonstrated this, and to be honest, now I can see that you don’t have the chops, either in terms of history, physics, or philosophy to demonstrate this. All you ever did in this thread were putting words in my mouth and ascribing imaginary motives to me.

@PdotdQ, I already affirmed that Galileo did not have the means to push heliocentrism as absolutely correct.

And - - in the future - - I will try to better remind myself that this thread was not specifically intended to discuss Galileo. The reason it keeps “feeling” like it is about Galileo is because of the trend in many science circles today where Bruno is being dismissed as “just a heretic”.

I can’t counter that position, so I’m not going to try. But the glee with which people of sound mind seem to take in Bruno being burned to death for reasons OTHER THAN SCIENCE I find to be pretty disturbing… and I watch discussions like this pretty carefully.

Now I see that you are volunteering, all on your own (though prompted by me as a trigger) to generate a backstory where - - to use your own words! - - Galileo was not Sciencing when he was put under house arrest.

And now I read this pile of foolishness:

@PdotdQ, oh really? That’s ALL?

In the last few postings, i have provided the real grist of what was going on between the Heliocentric crowd and Tycho. You posted that Copernicus’s religious views is what led to the idea of Massive Stars. No, @PdotdQ… that is wrong… and you should know it if you are so full of chops…

Tycho and others did the math on what they SAW in the sky, and using conservative assumptions, they still came up with MASSIVE stars. Copernicus tried to reduce the alarm that these massive stars seem to trigger in some circles… but it was not Copernicus or Galileo who “invented” the problem (indeed, it was a phenomenological issue that didn’t get resolved until the 1800s!).

While Copernicus appealed to people’s religiousity to tolerate massive stars, Tycho was essentially saying that God wouldn’t tolerate them. So who is being the religious zealot here?

The Heliocentrists said: there most certainly MUST be massive stars in Universe. Tycho said no way. So who is the scientist here? And who is the fool? And who was right?

The Heliocentrists proposed natural models where matter was suspended in a vast emptiness… and described what was a pretty elegant model of the Cosmos.

Tycho countered by inventing MORE epicycles and more crystal spheres wrapped around an un-moving earth? Who has the science chops in this situation? Galileo, or duphus Tycho?

There’s no question here… Tycho is using religious views to defend an increasingly complicated and unwieldly model of reality.

While the Heliocentrists are slowly but surely focusing new equipment and new testing methods on how to show what is real and not real about the universe. I know of no equivalent efforts by Tycho to try to prove crystal spheres.

You are sounding like a Bible-Thumping sci-fi geek here… and you have the gumption to say I am the one out of my depth?

That is… A-number-One hilarious.

How so? Because the sun is smaller than some stars?

Do you mean that rotation of one body is not simpler than the revolution of thousands of bodies? And is a rotating frame of reference physically reasonable, under either Newtonian or Einsteinian relativity? (Not to mention Galilean relativity.)

Where did Tycho say this? For Tycho, scripture is secondary evidence. His primary evidence is scientific. It was also not Copernicus who appealed to people’s religiousity, but Copernican astronomers like Rothmann. Big difference.

Epicycles are not Tycho’s work, it is from ancient Greek. Please re-read your History of Science.

Tycho also did not add any crystal spheres. Indeed, his works on comets in the late 1500s led credence to his dismantling of this idea of crystal spheres. Again I implore you to re-read your History of Science.

Again, Tycho did not like the crystal spheres. Indeed, his work on comets is one of the impetus of discarding these crystal spheres.

Your lack of basic History of Science is so apparent here that your lack of chops is “A-number-One hilarious”.

Yup! At least I would think that way. Note that it was not smaller than some stars, but smaller than ALL the stars they can see.

Uniform revolution of a thousand bodies and rotation of one body is equally simple, both fully described by one parameter: their angular velocity.

Of course!

Did they have angular diameters for all the stars, then?

Technically true, I suppose. But only if all the thousand bodies are a single rotating unit. Considering that they’re apparently at greatly different distances, we aren’t talking about a single crystal sphere here. The more I think of this, the more a non-roaatig earth seems like a big problem for Tycho. Planetary orbits are not circular or elliptical around the sun; they’re primarily near-perfect circles around the earth whose departures from that perfect circle, over time, can be summed to produce an ellipse of circles. The sun and stars also. Kepler’s laws are right out unless you subtract the daily circle and consider only the long-term elliptical component. Doesn’t work at all for Newton. E pur si muove.

Where does coriolis force come from in such a frame?

I don’t know, but for all of the stars that they have the “angular diameter” of they are much larger than the Sun.

First of, we are not talking about a thousand bodies here, but just the 8 planets + the Sun. This is why stellar parallax can distinguish between the Heliocentric and Tychonic systems. As I said previously,

With respect to the planets and the Sun, the system has the same number of parameters. In the Tychonic system, the angular velocity of the ith planet is indeed given by a single rotation plus an additional component:

\omega_i = \Omega + \delta\omega_i \; ,

where \Omega is the one coming from what we now know is the rotation of the Earth, but for Tychonic astronomers, would be the rotation of the “single rotating unit”. \delta \omega_i are 6 other numbers (one for every planet - Neptune hasn’t been discovered yet) denoting the “extra” rotation each planet has over \Omega. The revolution is therefore described by 7 numbers.

In Heliocentric models, the angular velocity of each planet is simply

\omega_i = \delta\omega_i \; ,

the 6 numbers corresponding to the angular velocity of the planet. In addition, since the Earth now rotates, an extra parameter needs to be prescribed for it

\omega_{R-\rm{Earth}} = \Omega \; .

So again, the revolution of the planets (plus now rotation of the Earth) are described by 7 numbers.

Now onto Kepler. The observations of Keplerian systems can be replicated by a complex system of epicycles. Kepler’s systems are less complex than heliocentric systems with a bunch of epicycles, and Occam’s Razor (at least the modern version) can be used to favor Keplerian rather than Tychonic models. I don’t know how a 1600s-1700s astronomer can argue for this scientifically though; I don’t think back then they have a rigorous understanding of Occam’s Razor, and certainly not quantitatively via a Bayesian approach.

Regardless, Galileo refused to use Keplerian elliptical orbits. In comparison to Galileo’s model, the Tychonic models are completely indistinguishable given the data.

From the change of coordinate to the rotating frame. The rotating frame is non-inertial, and automatically adds extra forces. However, this consideration is anachronistic. During Galileo’s times, there is no prescribed laws of motion (indeed, there is no force law at all). That all has to wait for Newton.

No, I’m talking about the “fixed stars” and the problem they present for a non-rotating earth. This is not about stellar parallax.

Did you mean geocentric systems?

The issue on this particular point isn’t Galileo; it’s the question of what is good evidence favoring heliocentrism over the Tychonian system.

Of course. I imagine there was no known coriolis “force” either.

I see. In that case then the equivalence of number of parameters between someone in a rotating frame and someone in “bird’s eye view” of the solar system would be similar to the one I mentioned, just take i to 1000s. Edit for clarification: also remember that in accordance to their name, the “fixed stars” have \delta \omega_i \sim 0, i.e. they really do all rotate as a single unit.

Oops! I do mean geocentric systems.

I see. In that case I would say that the evidence favor Keplerian heliocentrism over Tychonian system, based on it being simpler (relying on fewer number of free parameters).

They aren’t rotating at all, at least as considered here. They revolve, in quite different speeds and with different orbits around different center points. Why should they be considered a single unit?

Just to be clear, we are talking about the fixed stars, correct? As indicated by their name, they have basically no extra angular velocity as seen by an observer standing on Earth, aside from the one they obtain from the Earth’s rotation. This is because they are located very far away from Earth.

As I mentioned previously, from the point of view of an observer standing on Earth (i.e. a Tychonic observer), the speed of revolution of all heavenly bodies are given by

\omega_i = \Omega + \delta \omega_i \; ,

\Omega is the component of the angular velocity due solely because the Earth is rotating. Because they are so far away, \delta \omega_i \sim 0, and all of their motion in the sky is essentially due to \Omega, the rotation of the Earth. As such they rotate across the sky with a single angular velocity \Omega as a single unit, forming circular arcs like you can see in night shots such as this:

You see, they all revolve around a single center point, which is defined by the rotational axis of the Earth.

2 Likes

No, they all revolve around a single axis, but around different points on that axis. And at different speeds. Not different angular speeds, those are all the same, but at different speeds. Of course one can’t know those speeds without knowing their distances from the earth’s axis, but one can certainly know that they’re different. Now, it seems to me that under the non-rotating earth theory, all those different speeds and orbital center points need separate explanations, unless of course all the stars are embedded in a single crystal sphere. It also seems an amazing coincidence that all those different orbits conspire to replicate what would be observed from a rotating earth.

I think there is some confusion in our terminology, but I think I understand now what you are trying to say. Of course they revolve around with different speeds, but given that they have the same angular speeds, the speeds are not arbitrary, it’s just

v = \Omega r \; ,

with r being the distance of the star from the rotational axis. Because the speeds are fully specified by \Omega, no new free parameter is required. Note that the extra input r is also required in the rotating Earth model.

In terms of different orbital central points, the Tychonic model just have the entire cosmos revolving around an axis. Doing so will produce the night-sky observation without any problems.

I suppose I don’t understand why you think that a non-rotating Earth cannot produce this observation. It is one thing to say that you find the non-rotating Earth model to be ad-hoc, but it’s another to say that the non-rotating Earth cannot produce such observations. I am honestly not sure which ones you are claiming right now.

No problem. I don’t think that. I just think that it’s exceedingly unlikely that all those separate objects would be so well-coordinated. At the least I think their coordination needs some explanation other than “there’s a single parameter”. What does “rotating universe” even mean? It makes no sense unless the universe is embedded in a crystal sphere; then it’s just the rotation of a single object. No problem. Are we talking about a crystal sphere or about a number of moving bodies?

Yup, that’s a fair criticism. I am not sure how to make it quantifiable though.

I don’t know what Tycho and his folks thought is actually rotating. Tycho did not like the idea of celestial spheres, and his work on comets helped in dismantling the idea (as comets do not behave as if they were affixed on the sphere with the other “stars”).

As an aside, there are notions of rotating the Universe in terms of rotating spacetimes in general relativity. No crystal sphere is needed. Of course this is completely anachronistic - if you believe in general relativity you probably already believe in Keplerian heliocentrism.