Greg On The Odds of Macroevolution and Vegas

(Herculean Skeptic) #21

What does this mean?? What are you saying??

(Retired Professor & Minister.) #22

Greg, why does ID enthusiasm (and once confidential writings like the Wedge Document) so often accompany efforts in state legislatures, state textbook commissions, and local school boards to lower textbook standards and to remove competent evolutionary biology education from public school curricula? Are you certain that there is zero correlation between the two?

(Timothy Horton) #23

Science fights against teaching ID pseudo-science propaganda for the same reason we fight against teaching Holocaust denial. Lying to students for political reasons is a bad idea, period.

If your worldview is threatened by empirically measured and scientifically verified reality it’s time to modify your world view.

(Retired Professor & Minister.) #24

Greg, we would all agree that some people have tried to apply the science behind the Theory of Evolution to their non-science political, economic, and even military agendas which produced great evil and suffering. Yet, would you not agree that the same could be said of the Bible and the writings of various Christian theologians?

Has the Bible ever been used to promote racism? Yes. Has the Bible been used to promote slavery? Yes. Have the writings of Martin Luther ever been used by racists to justify oppression and even genocide? Yes. (If centuries of European history are any guide, the answer to that second question is most definitely and repeatedly yes. Adolf Hitler and the Nazis loved to quote Luther.) Therefore, should we follow your logic and reject the Bible and the writings of Martin Luther by the same “guilt by association” logical fallacy argument which you are applying here in hopes of denigrating the Theory of Evolution?

Greg, you are digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself. This is not the best way to make a case for God and the Bible.

Does probability refute evolution?
(Greg) #25

In the book of Col chapter 1: 15 He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. In him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Sense would have it that if the one you follow created all things, you would think that He also designed them too. What revelation is it that defines the “Christ” which you follow as a “Christ follower?”

(Retired Professor & Minister.) #26

And that is exactly what I wrote. Did you bother to read my posts? (If you did, then this reply makes no sense.)

I look forward to your answers to my questions which are still pending.

(Greg) #27

Thankyou for clarifying exactly the reason why i sense purpose to distill the naturalistic voices that are trying to infuse false views into the ears and hearts of my bretheren in the Bride of Christ, the church. Faith in God is not about psychobabble,being a goodie for show or wearing a plastic smile. It is about God. You know about the billions of galaxies in the universe-He created them. One of the easiest beliefs we can have as Christians is belief that God created us and naturalists in the facade of objective science are attempting to highjack this belief. God my Creator has been too good to not do my part to holding the door closed from those who want to redefine Him to something He is not


Can you please point to the article where Venema says that observing adaptation in living species means that all species are related through common descent?

How in the world does evolution support racism or the sanctity of life? Do you think the theory of gravity tells us to push people off of tall buildings?


Why couldn’t God create us through natural processes?

(Greg) #30

Well of course this is true. And this means greater judgement for those purposefully twisting Scripture to justify sin. And Luther did a lot of great things, but he is just a man who did and said stupid things too. Last i heard, im not a Lutheren, but a Christian. So this is not a hole i am digging at all. You should know this, as a theologian that the removal of any basis of truth, anything goes. Since mainstream evolutionary teachings are mainly Godless, the long term affects I believe will be devastating. You watch. Look at the number of cases of depression, drug addiction and suicide in this country alone as they coincide with the diminishment of the fabric of the judeo christian worldview. Look at the failing mental health of our youth. Would you think that teaching them that we are accidents evolved from apes in the science classroom has something to do with it? I believe yes yes yes.

(Greg) #31

Because God is beyond the natural. I feel like im beating a dead horse so sorry to rehash old statements. An acorn from an oak tree has all of the ingredients embedded in the nature of that seed to grow the tree. When a sperm meets the egg, same thing. All of the ingredients are encapsulated in in those to form an adult. But a baterium to a chicken? There is nothing in science that can come close to comparing the acorn analogy to one about the evolution of a bacterium w a flagellum to a chicken w feathers and eyes and a liver. You give nature a chance to do something miraculous with a bacterium for a trillion trillion years, and i would suggest the result will be a bunch of bacterium or extinction and nothingness. To assign this to God is a badge of thw highest form of disrespect.

(Timothy Horton) #32

Actually for you to claim you know what God would or wouldn’t do is an even higher form of disrespect. Shame on you.


No one thinks that chickens emerged from bacteria, so why are you even making this claim?

Why couldn’t the simplest life 3+ billion years ago also have all the ingredients that are needed to evolve the species we see today? How is it any different?

Is it also a badge of disrespect when we describe how clouds naturally produce rain? I grew up in a farming community, and more than once I heard farmers talk about God blessing them with a good snow year. Not one of them thought snow and rain were supernatural, and yet they all thought God was involved. I don’t see how your position really makes sense.

(T J Runyon) #34

Then why are there any natural processes? I mean everyone agrees that 99 percent of phenomena occur naturally in the universe (some people hold out on the OOL and it’s diversity).

(Greg) #35

I have two teenagers and one more soon to be. If we allowed their minds to be flooded with thoughts that they are the result of natural occurrence bc “99% of phenomena occur naturally” in their pleasantly no nonsense demeanor with a mix of their sin nature, they will tend more to dismiss faith in a supernatural God than to embrace Him as the direct manufacturer of all of life.

Was reading in the book of Col this am- in a nutshell, We are called to walk with the living Christ whom we have received by faith, and the living Christ has eternally existed and is the Maker of all things in the heavens and earth.

Those who accept universal common decent are engaging faith to believe this. Yeah yeah yeah, the computations seem to point there, but garbage into the computations makes garbage come out. And those who say that all things are natural are also abiding by a faith called naturalism. The mix of these two faiths is not anywhere in line with Christianity. Im not trying to force you to believe something. Im just giving the facts.

You seem to be leaning towards naturalism. But i read that Jesus spoke and the storm subsided and that the sunlight dissipated upon the crucifixion of Jesus. You say the universe looks old, but Jesus instintaneously created fermented wine from water. You say in nature, dead organic bodies decay, but Jesus took a body dead for several days and made it alive again. You say nature, over billions of yrs took a bacteria like substance and molded it to a walking creature with a heartbeat, eyes and reproductive organs. God says He created the kinds in a few days not too long ago and that Jesus Himself is that Maker (Col 1) You say the God of these Scriptures needs to bow to the likes of your science. I shutter to know instead that smart sounding people of science are called instead by God to bow the entire fabric if there volition, emotion, rationale and being to He who meticulously crafted them. And by the way, it is harder for a rich man (i would surmise rich in many areas) to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to go through the eye of a needle…But with God, anything is possible. That means that everything good in me as a result of my new birth in Him was created by Him! Goosebumps.

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #36

And what is wrong with that?

(Timothy Horton) #37

Anything except evolution it seems. For some reason God couldn’t pull off that feat. So in His embarrassment He created tons of physical evidence to make it look like He used evolution.

(Greg) #38

God could not pull off that feat anymore than He could pull off a feat of placing a load of 2x4s and some plywood on a lot and expecting them to form a house by the power of the sun.

Yes there is evidence of micro forms of evolution which I as a creationist believe. A naturalist interprets this evidence as universal common decent- there is absolutely no other choice for a person knee deep in the religion of naturalism than this option, is there? So the assumption feeds the computation and the computation proves the assumption- a counterintuitive glob of pseudo science by someone who claims that science is objective. A creationist on the other hand looks at examples of micro evolution we can see in real time: a new species of a finch was proposed to have just emerged in the last few decades. They interpret this as the kinds adapting.

(Greg) #39

Hey Patrick! Was’ uuup? For some you can be seen as such an irritant. I see you as a thick skinned big city survivor who’s interjections seem to bolster the main thrust of my argument that evolutionism that hangs its hat on universal common decent has no place in God’s house. This response is a perfect example.

I want to believe you are really who you seem to depict in these interchanges and everytime I see your responses, i find a strange balance of appreciation of your Jersey steadfast toughness, sorrow that you seem to be possibly wounded by a religiousity somewhere in your background, and care and love for you and your family! I know you dont believe in God, but i promise you that my prayers will go forth for you and yours this weekend to the God who created us and who loves us more that we know. Have a wonderful wknd Patrick. Looks like i will be shoveling some snow over this entire wknd! First snow in cincy and really beautiful outside. Good one sir. Greg


You should be happy you’re not Orthodox. Limiting God and saying what He can or cannot do is considered heresy and is grounds for excommunication.