How do we know when our interpretation is wrong?

This is why you stay so far away from the scientific evidence, preferring hearsay.

When will you point out your essays in which you deal DIRECTLY with evidence?

So that you might read it and see that you’re no different from earlier Christians who opposed heliocentrism.

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I already know from a previous thread that you don’t know how to apply that word correctly. You claim the firsthand descriptions of bone specimens by the very scientist who studied them are “hearsay”.

If you quote them instead of citing the actual evidence, they are. You are offering only hearsay.

When will you point out your essays in which you deal DIRECTLY with evidence?

You mean the scientist who described the Alaskan hadrosaur bones as being fossils approx. 70 million years old. Yes. we do accept his word on the matter.

No, firsthand eyewitness testimony is not hearsay. Not in law, and not in science either.

But when YOU offer it in place of actual evidence, it is not firsthand, so it is hearsay coming from YOU.

I’ve never quoted anyone in >40 scientific papers. That’s how it works in science.

AFAIK, only one of my peers has ever quoted me, but he did so in a review to credit me for an analogy he thought was good.

When will you point out your essays in which you deal DIRECTLY with evidence?

The Bible isn’t firsthand eyewitness testimony.

So you’re saying I’m disqualified from talking about any evidence I have not personally collected?

You’ve never discussed the evidence in your own words here. All you do is keep linking to your non-science YEC apologetic empty claims.


The text says this: 27 So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” This is as clear as the days of creation being twenty-four hours.

So some understand… and yet he is called God and an angel simultaneously… and theologians who author commentaries don’t know what to say about this passage… it’s handled clumsily and awkwardly because one cannot say for certain what, precisely, these things mean. You can suggest that its a theophany. You can suggest it is an angel. You can suggest that it is a mesopotamian river demon. What you cannot do is say, exactly, what this means. By your own words, measure scripture against scripture. When you look at the nature of God, in scripture, God never looks like what wrestled with Jacob… and that is narrative in Genesis!


No, I’m saying that before you make any sweeping scientific claim, that you read the primary scientific literature as we scientists do: the text is an often unnecessary guide to the figures and tables (evidence).

When will you point out your essays in which you deal DIRECTLY with evidence?

I’m beginning to think that no such essays exist. What are you afraid of, Paul? Where’s your faith?

God also asked Adam “Where are you”; do you think God didn’t know?

What about when God was nailed to a cross?

PDPrice, is it possible your interpretation of Scripture as literal and infallible may be wrong?

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Yes, I do think he knew where Adam was… and there was a point to His asking. Parents do this with their children all of the time. There were implications because Adam was hiding. But the text does not say so. One must infer this in order to get to this conclusion. This is the point that I’m making. You look at the text literally, and you say, “Well, clearly he knew where Adam and Eve were!” But when we look at other pieces of text in the same section of scripture, we can also apply the same analysis to it. You are not leaving room for doing so as well in the case of the days of creation, and yet you are doing so just a few verses later, with the location of Adam and Eve.

In the case of Jacob… maybe it was God and the question was rhetorical. Maybe it was not God and the question was literal. Who knows? You simply cannot tell from the text. All that we can know for sure is that there is some underlying spiritual truth important to all believers.

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I thought we already established that the text specifically does say it was God (it does). I don’t know what basis you have for saying “maybe it was not God”.

This is what I’ve got:

24 Jacob was left alone; and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he struck him on the hip socket; and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, “Let me go, for the day is breaking.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go, unless you bless me.” 27 So he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” 28 Then the man said, “You shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with humans, and have prevailed.” 29 Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.”

It doesn’t specifically say that it was God. I think it’s certainly a reasonable assumption that it was a theophany, but it could have been an angel or something else, right?


It doesn’t? The man himself implies he is God when he says “you have striven with God”; Jacob understood this because he says “I have seen God face to face”.

Actually elohim means “God”, “god” or “a god”… But it certainly isn’t clear because it wasn’t translated so. And the chapter headings were added to say “angel” for the very reasons that we’ve been discussing. It simply is not clear.

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No, it doesn’t. If it had said something like “You are called Israel, for today you have striven with God and you have prevailed against me” it might be more conclusive. The sentence mentions both God and humans and it’s a man saying this, so I think it’s unclear if the man is God or “humans” in that sentence. Jacob also asked him his name and he never responded. Like I said, it’s a good assumption, but I don’t think you can say that’s the only possible interpretation.