The YEC Kurt Wise has stated that 99% of Christian geologists affirm an old earth and local flood. So this number is not an exaggeration.
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Except we have evidence just as old if not older. The Epic was borrowed from the Genesis text and embellished to write a fable. Here is the tablet you have to beat:
Ever been in a local flood?!
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No but when I am in one it almost certainly will not prevail for 150 days.
And don’t forget the Australian aboriginals.
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Or 40 days, depending on which verse you want to focus on.
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40 days initial rain, from memory, then more flood? Recent (2011) local floods in Queensland were from 4-5 days rain and persisted for months… But if the event we’re talking about is something like this…
What do the Wiccans affirm?
- Maybe in the territory of Turkey where there are many pillars of the T-shape, which was originally made to commemorate the ancestor or a very good and just leader, over time turned into worship of these pillars.
Quran Surah 71: (21) [And] Noah continued: "O my Sustainer! Behold, they have opposed me [throughout], for they follow people whose wealth and children lead them increasingly into ruin,13 (22) and who have devised a most awesome blasphemy [against Thee], (23) inasmuch as they said [to their followers], ‘Do not ever abandon your gods: abandon neither Wadd nor Suwa’, and neither Yaghuth nor Ya’uq nor Nasr!'14
“The names (of the idols) formerly belonged to some pious men of the people of Noah, and when they died Satan inspired their people to prepare and place idols at the places where they used to sit, and to call those idols by their names. The people did so, but the idols were not worshipped till those people (who initiated them) had died and the origin of the idols had become obscure, whereupon people began worshipping them.” ( Saheeh Al-Bukhari )
- … just a portion
Why did Noah need an ark?
Quran Surah 11: (36) AND THIS was revealed unto Noah: “Never will any of thy people believe except those who have already attained to faith. Be not, then, distressed by anything that they may do, (37) but build, under Our eyes59 and according to Our inspiration, the ark [that shall save thee and those who follow thee];60 and do not appeal to Me in behalf of those who are bent on evildoing for, behold, they are destined to be drowned!”
- Maybe around 9-12 kya
[15] Dietrich, Oliver. (2011). Radiocarbon dating the first temples of mankind. Comments on 14C-Dates from Göbekli Tepe. Zeitschrift für Orient-Archäologie. 4. 12–25.
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The pre-flood world has its own unique rivers as described in Genesis 2, which really don’t line up with anything we see now, though many try. We know that this was a massively catastrophic event as described in Genesis 7. Science tells us that there was a super-continent at one point. So if we assume that the pre-flood world was a super-continent, then it would be obvious to the survivors that when they saw what was around them when the flood ended that the world had completely changed and the waters must have covered the whole globe. And it would have been obvious that was the reason all the animals were on the ark with them - because no life remained anywhere on the planet.
I have researched almost nothing of flood geology but I think this mainstream science is still interesting - only 1 km of water pressure on the surface needed to crack the earth like an egg.
Quran Surah 11:40
[And so it went on] till, when Our judgment came to pass, and waters gushed forth in torrents over the face of the earth,62 We said [unto Noah]: "Place on board of this [ark] one pair of each [kind of animal] of either sex,63 as well as thy family - except those on whom [Our] sentence has already been passed64 - and all [others] who have attained to faith!65- for, only a few [of Noah’s people] shared his faith.
63 The term zawj signifies, primarily, each of the two parts of a pair, and is also used in the sense of “a pair”.'In the present context it obviously has the former meaning; consequently, the expression min kullin zawjayn ithnayn is best rendered as above. - As regards the animals which Noah was commanded to take with him in the ark, it is reasonable to assume that this referred to the domesticated animals already in his possession, and not to all animals, as the Biblical narrative would have it.
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Pangaea divided into the current continents over hundreds of millions of years, not thousands, and loooong before there were human beings on Earth.
And not due to water.
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Ok, thanks for your honesty here. This is a long way from answering my list of questions, but you’ve answered more than most of the other OEC participants so far.
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Speaking for God now, are we?
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I am actually aware of this critique.
The first problem is that Peter Bekins falsely claims that creationists argue that the Nippur tablet “matches Genesis”. Creationists don’t claim a “match” but do claim strong agreement with Genesis. The second problem is that Bekins thinks we somehow need the added words Hilprecht supplied in brackets to find agreement with Genesis. We don’t. What is decipherable in the text already, and easily, finds agreement with Genesis:
“sweep away all men together, deluge, overthrow, destruction, annihilation, build a great ship, total height in structure, houseboat carrying what has been saved of life, strong deck to cover it, beast of the field, birds of heaven, and the family”
But there are other agreements with Genesis. Here is a quote from a creationist article:
“Also of significance is that the language of the Nippur tablet is quite different from that of most of the other tablets recovered alongside it. It is very close to biblical Hebrew, again indicating that the Genesis account was not derived from Babylonian myths. It also lacks the gross polytheism of the Gilgamesh account.”
I completely agree with this viewpoint. I believe this approach applies to Genesis 1-3 as well as 6-9, but that may have been discussed a time or two in other threads…
I completely agree here, as well. I appreciate your thoughts outlined here.
I tend to support a “so-called ‘local flood’”, because the evidence does not support a global flood and I don’t believe the account should be taken as pure myth.
The map @Roels_Major posted seems like a pretty reasonable guess.
I think it is highly unlikely it killed all of humanity aside from the 8, unless it occurred far earlier than Bible-based timelines would indicate. There are too many civilizations with uninterrupted histories through the speculated time frame.
Based on the Bible timeline, roughly 4000 years ago.
I can offer only guesses here. There is an endless supply of “Why did” questions in the Bible. Why did God create Adam and Eve with the capability to sin when it would require the sacrificial death of Jesus? Why did God punish the serpent when it was Satan that tempted Adam and Eve? Why did God expel Adam and Eve from the garden, rather than just removing the tree?
I don’t find the “Why did” questions reasonable arguments against the possibility of a local flood, but I’ll at least share my guesses. My guess is Noah needed an ark because of the extent of the flood and because God wanted to show what could be done when people choose to follow His instructions. My guess is that animals were sent to the ark to display God’s dominion and possibly even help restore life to the affected area.
This is a critical point for Christians. I think it is perfectly fine, from a faith standpoint, to disagree on global vs local flood (and other issues like creation time/mechanism) that are unrelated to central doctrines of Christianity, so long as we do not vilify those that hold those nonessential interpretations that differ from our own.
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It’s beaten here (credit to @ProfBravus ):
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Re: Nippur Tablet -
I was going to say, after looking up this object, the image provided does not appear to be the object in question. Images here, with more high resolution images available in a link on the left side of the page.
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I already addressed @ProfBravus 's article. See just a few above here.
Besides, are you not aware of the heated, hotly contested dates of some of these tablets by scholars? That is par for the course in this ancient research. You will find just as many great scholars who support a much older date as you do a younger.
That you found one or more who likes 1400 BCE is fully expected. You will find one or more who like 2100 BCE as well.