Is a "blind and mindless process" a bad thing?

As a Molinist, obviously, I totally agree.

(My point, of course, in citing other process like radioisotope decay and photosynthesis, was that evolutionary processes are no more or less in God’s plan than any other process. That is why I kept putting quotation marks around “blind and mindless processes”. God is sovereign over all of the processes he created. Evolution deniers work hard to place some processes in a different category, so they emphasize “blind and mindless.” It reinforces their theme that evolution is a dangerous idea and somehow scary for the godly.)

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False.

This claim often accompanies the tired old “historical science versus observational science” theme, a common propaganda mantra among origins-ministry entrepreneurs. It is a false dichotomy.

For many people, the word “experiment” brings thoughts of test tubes and beakers in a brightly lit laboratory—and that is among the reasons why many textbook discussions of the scientific method use the word testing instead. If no testing of a hypothesis is involved, than you would have a valid point. Yet in actual fact, the Theory of Evolution is probably among the most tested areas of science and universal common descent is constantly subjected to hypothesis testing in the scientific journals. Daily.

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Let’s try this. How would you test that humans and chimps share a common ancestor. What result would validate this to a 95% confidence level?

This the one easiest tests of one component of universal common descent.

This is why historical sciences often uses the inference standard and not the scientific method.

I respectfully disagree. Here is an article on inference to the best explanation and how Darwin used it.

Van Fraassen’s Critique of Inference to the Best Explanation

Samir Okasha*
PDF is available on Google.

I’m not qualified to do such testing but plenty of scientists are (including computational specialists like Dr. Swamidass.) Human and chimpanzee genomes have been mapped and the patterns rigorously compared. One of the most striking features to compare is the presence of ERVs. They tend to fall into the same patterns of nested hierarchies which evolutionary theory predicts. Scientists have also compared human chromosome #2 with its chimpanzee counterpart and observed that the human chromosome #2 is the result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes. Vestigial centromeres and vestigial telomeres are obvious in human chromosome #2! (If people still commonly used the word aglet in describing shoelaces, I would be tempted to use an analogy of two separate shoelaces tied together. The result would be one very long shoelace but inspection would make the “fusion” obvious to any careful observer. One would notice aglets in the middle of the very long shoelace, not just at the ends.)

I’d say “a sufficient number of site comparisons”. The higher the number of comparisons confirming the prediction, the higher the confidence level. To me, it is a matter of simple math. (Well, it is not simple for this old guy who hasn’t taught z*-values and sigmas since the early 1980’s. But it would be a piece of cake for the biostatisticians on this forum.)

In any case, I’m sure that the specialists here could provide a much better answer than I can.

I agree!

Of course, I’m not saying that Universal Common Descent is as well attested as Common Descent in general—but your example is yet another very powerful reason why Universal Common Descent is explained in virtually every evolutionary biology textbook I’ve ever seen. The evidence that all life on earth descended from a LUCA (Last Universal Common Ancestor) is massive. Indeed, you’ve brought up a great example of how “historical science” depends on the hypothesis testing of the scientific method.

You keep promoting false dichotomies. I don’t think you understand what the scientific method entails. Inferring and predicting are essential to science.

If someone drives home after work and finds a pile of rubble and charred embers where their house once stood, they can infer from their observations that the house burned down. Yes, someone might say, "No. While the owner was at work, somebody demolished the house and hauled it away for the sale of the scrap lumber and fill. Then they piled burned materials from a nearby junk yard at the site. " A forensic scientist could analyze the debris at the site, test the soil for evidence of combustion, and make observations which lead to logical inferences about what happened—even though the scientist was not present to observe the burning of the house. That’s good science as well as common sense.

In fact, I’m always amazed that people like Ken Ham promote absurd mantras like “Were you there?” when in his daily life he could scarcely function without such logical inferences about what happened in the past, where events in the past produced evidence which can be observed in the present. Indeed, it is impossible to devise an experiment which doesn’t involve collecting evidence in the present from events which happened in the past. In a typical lab experiment, the time delay involved in data collection may be measurable in a few nanoseconds but in solar astronomy the “delay” is about 8.3 minutes. (Yes, the light travels that fast but I admit that there are particles which take much longer.) For radio-astronomers, they collect data in the present from events which happened up to millions and even billions of years ago. Indeed, look up at the stars at night and you are observing the past.

@colewd, you’ve asked some excellent questions! Even though this is a tangential sub-thread, I consider it very worthwhile.

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Bill, IN YOUR OPINION do tigers and house cats share a common ancestor ? Yes or no, and what scientific evidence lead you to the conclusion?

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It is traditional in this forum (and most others) to provide both a link and some sort of summary for why a poster considers a particular source relevant to the point they are making.

You are making a massive counter-claim against a basic principle in science. So the burden of proof is on you. Frankly, without some kind of substantive evidence and reasonable analysis, most readers aren’t going to pursue rabbit trails. (“Go read this” in and of itself does not contribute a lot to this discussion.)

Meanwhile, I addressed your questions about humans and chimpanzee’s sharing a common ancestor. Are you conceding the facts I summarized?

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Hi Allen
We have common ground here. The claim of universal common descent is a monster claim and the problems with testing it start with the first transition of prokaryotic to eukaryotic cells.

There are many transitions that require lots of functional information (DNA sequences that code for a defined cellular function). The origin of large quantities of new functional information remains uncertain as we have yet to model this.

We also have common ground that there is positive evidence for humans and chimps sharing a common ancestor.

There is, however, also evidence that creates problems for this claim like splicing differences and de novo genes in humans along with genes that are shared with humans and rats and not with chimps.

So at this point it is at the inference or in the untested hypothesis stage.

Let me define untested as not passing a test that can confirm the hypothesis with high confidence (95%). I currently do cancer research and this is the standard generally used in the experiments I study.

I too am enjoying the discussion. Thanks for engaging :slight_smile:

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It’s not just DNA. We have the morphological data from the at least 19 different hominid species which live in the last 3-4 million years which show a definite progression towards AMH features (although the path is not linear due to multiple cases of those species interbreeding). We also have the biogeographic data showing the spread of those hominid species across the planet in the same time frame and gradually developing human-like skills such as tool use, habitat modification, etc.

When you take ALL the evidence into consideration the case is as close to definitive as you’re going to get.

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Heh, I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard an IDer repeat the canard “evolution can’t produce new functional information”. I’d pay off the national debt. :slightly_smiling_face:

How about it Bill? IN YOUR OPINION do tigers and house cats share a common ancestor ? Yes or no, and what scientific evidence lead you to the conclusion?

This question is very relevant in determining why you accept some scientific conclusions and reject others based on the identical methodology.

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I think I recall Dr. Swamidass posting on the topic of how evolution theory actually expects and predicts those types of “anomalies.” (I put that word in quotation marks because it is the first potential label to come to mind, though I’m sure it is not the best word choice. For now, it’s all I’ve got for a description.) Does anybody here recall where he talked about that? It was about phylogenies/nested hierarchies and some popular anti-evolution arguments based on “exceptions”, I think.

Prokaryotes to eukaryotes is definitely a fascinating topic. I’m familiar with the mitochondrial evidence but I’m not at all current on the popular explanations for the nucleus. If there are specialists here who are familiar with the literature, I’d love to see a thread on that topic.

Can you cite a significant (much cited) paper on this topic of shared human and chimp ancestry which failed the 95% CI test? I assume some investigations failed to produce such a CI but it is my understanding that many of the genomic comparison papers far surpassed that CI.

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For sure! As the saying goes: “Ain’t that the truth!”

I’m very interested in Bill’s response on that one.

Relevant indeed. I’m somewhat baffled by Bill’s position. It seems like selective acceptance of the science. And this may not be fair on my part—but I got the impression that Bill has been side-tracked by some of the rhetorical ploys of some of the writers in the ID and YEC communities. It sure sounds like Bill has adopted the popular “historical science versus observation science” false dichotomy. (If I’m wrong about that, please correct me!)

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Absolutely! I guess as a layperson, the DNA evidence is just so “tangible” and exciting. (Maybe it’s just me but the morphological data requires a lot more knowledge to fully grasp, even though I certainly agree that it is just as important.)

Agreed. And the biogeographic data for so many animals is absolutely compelling. Australia is such a slam dunk, massive pile of evidence for common descent and the descent patterns which make basic evolutionary biology easily understood by laypersons like me.

And that being the case, I’ve never had the impression that the 95% CI is that hard to meet, especially with the genomic data (although probably only because I am a bit more familiar with those discoveries.)

(By the way, @colewd, I’d be interested in learning more about your cancer research sometime. Sometimes people start a thread to introduce themselves—even if they’ve been here a while. To me it is always fun to read about how a forum participant’s area of research informs their posts.)

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I have never seen the hypothesis stated in this form. If you have I would be very interested.

Lets see if Tim can make a scientific case with high confidence. I have not studied this and am agnostic on the issue. Why would anyone have a conclusion without studying the data?

Wow. Too afraid to even state an opinion on whether or not tigers and housecats share a common ancestor. Yet you’re very sure humans and chimps didn’t share a common ancestor. So much for constructive discussion.

Allen if you agree that this is a canard then show me a tested model that shows evolution can build sufficient amounts of functional information.

Richard Dawkins introduced a model 35 years ago but it required pre knowledge of the target sequence.

Bill you’re seen scientific research dozens of times explaining how evolutionary processes create new functional information. There is no known barrier as to how much information can be produced by the processes. If you claim there is some sort of barrier or limit it is your burden of proof to demonstrate that barrier or limit.

Just show Allen a model.

1+1+1 = 3 There Bill, there’s your model for how functional information accumulates in a genome.

If you claim there is some sort of barrier or limit on the amount of FI evolutionary processes can produce it is your burden of proof to demonstrate that barrier or limit.

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