Is Biblical Scholarship Crawling with "Unscientific" Piety?

It seems to me to be an adolescent approach to focus on the size of a hand of cards, of a book collection, or of anything else, but if it’s the only sort of reply that you will understand, there is this:

and this:

and this:

and, since you’re so keen to discuss Homer, this:

I’m leaving out several shelves of OT/NT commentaries and reference books, several shelves of Greek and Roman Classics, several shelves of Greek and Roman philosophy and science, Biblical and Classical atlases, etc.

Now that we have finished our contest of display, perhaps we could get back to the contents of texts, texts studied with reference to the Greek and Hebrew grammar and vocabulary that I evidently know so little about.

Never heard the phrase before, though it used to be common to serve sorbet before the main course at special occasions like weddings and at Christmas. Perhaps there’s a connection between borrowing food ideas and co-opting story fragments, though.

Well, it’s true that legendary heroes tend to attract stories originally told about other people. But the examples Boris gives are just lame.

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…sez the guy who thinks Michael Behe, Michael Denton and Steven Meyer deserve to be taken seriously as scientific thinkers. Irony meters are never safe around "Eddie.

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I heard someone tried to patent an irony meter fuse where the conductive material was made of creationist brains, as that is the only material theoretically able to endure the stress of such spikes of sheer stupidity. She later abandoned the idea as economically unviable due to material scarcity.

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Um, this may have escaped you, @Boris_Badenoff, but my message was more for @Eddie’s benefit. After all, he has shown on this board some affinity for arguments that are but lists of coincidences (this describes Denton’s scholarship to a tee). I expect that after you and he finish a few rounds of “mine is bigger than yours”, he may actually come to some agreement with your way of thinking about stories in the Bible.

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In the case of Denton, not a mere “list of coincidences,” but a detailed analysis of the complex overlapping and mutual reinforcing of “coincidences,” a reality which suggests that quite possibly something more than “coincidence,” as the term is popularly used, is going on. But that is another topic, which I won’t enter upon here. I agree, however, that Boris’s “argument” is largely a list of “coincidences” in the popular sense, with no consistent principle generating the list. For Boris, if two texts show a number of similarities, no matter how incidental or remote, the later text is derived from, or imitative of, the earlier one. The list of similarities, by itself, without any strong internal connections between them, is the argument.

The thing is, the sort of significance-bearing parallel Boris is insisting upon between Homer and Mark is sometimes found to exist within or between ancient texts. Some serious Homeric scholars have argued that there are concealed astronomical references in passages of the Odyssey, for example, based on precise numbers used by the author. And I once read an article by a competent Plato scholar that argued that one of Plato’s Dialogues is a philosophical recasting of the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur. But in all such cases there is a tight literary argument showing how the similarities between nature and text, or text and text, interlock for a purpose. Boris, on the other hand, is “similarity crazy,” grabbing at any and every parallel, no matter how weak, and at any repeated word (and where the repeated word is missing, at strained equivalents, such as “tomb” for “cave”). The methodological problem is obvious; there is little to no control in the assembly of parallels. Texts become little more than Rorschach ink blots, into which anything can be read, and there is no possibility of falsifying any hypothetical connection. This not only not “scientific,” it isn’t even scholarly.

No, they are just coincidences. It’s like Douglas Adams telling his puddle story for 45 minutes, only without meaning it to be a joke.

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For any non-specialist here who would like a good popular summary of why most specialists think that Boris is wrong, see: What Language Did Jesus Speak? | Zondervan Academic.

But I didn’t fold, as the images above show. And to continue with your card analogy, four of a kind beats a straight. So are you ready to drop the ad hominem charges and return to talking about substance?

So to be clear: If “most specialists” consider a particular idea or line of thought to be wrong, does that mean it most likely is wrong?

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Yes, good question. I don’t agree with Boris on the substance here but I do find the contrast between the scrutiny given to this and the scrutiny given to ID’s various insane and dishonest propositions really, really interesting.

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It depends on the sociological situation regarding the specialists. In times past, when scientists and scholars prided themselves on their a-political character, and strove to stringently separate scholarship/science from social and political advocacy, it was likely that most (certainly not all) of the time, it was safer to bet with the majority, especially when it was an overwhelming majority. In our day, however, in many academic fields, the practitioners are heavily politicized, so one always has to take that into account whenever one is inclined to reason that “the majority of specialists can’t be wrong”.

For example, in fields where a certain sort of conclusion is far more likely to induce the government to put out research grant money than another sort of conclusion, there is an impure potential motivation that is likely to guide at least some scientists or scholars to favor (or pretend they favor) the more lucrative conclusion, and denounce other scientists or scholars who disagree, and there is likely to be self-censorship among those who hold to the less lucrative conclusion. And the same sort of political pressures can exist regarding hiring, tenure, and promotion. In fields with which I am familiar, I have certainly observed such political pressures.

However, in the case of Biblical scholarship on the language of Jesus, it’s unclear to me what “political” considerations would cause the vast majority of scholars to conclude that the everyday language of Jesus and his followers was likely Aramaic. The arguments appear to me to be philologically sound, and methodologically neutral in character.

I’m of course open to evidence that there is some conspiracy to suppress the view that Jesus spoke, say, Latin, or pure Biblical Hebrew, but I see no evidence for such a conspiracy, and no reason why any individuals or groups should have anything to gain by putting over such a conspiracy. For example, it might be thought that orthodox Jews would have a motivation to represent Jesus as speaking Aramaic rather than Hebrew, out of a prejudice (a desire to represent the heretic as an uneducated fellow from the sticks who could speak only the tongue of the vulgar), whereas Christians would have a desire to represent Jesus as speaking Hebrew rather than Aramaic (to stress that he was every bit as much steeped in Hebrew learning as the top authorities in Jerusalem); yet we find that both Jewish and Christian scholars agree that Jesus likely spoke Aramaic. Such agreement between two groups which in the past have shown pronounced theological and cultural biases suggests that the scholarship on this point is methodologically neutral, and honest.

If Boris is convinced that the conclusion that Jesus spoke Aramaic is a politically driven conclusion put over on the world by Christian scholars, he should be able to produce all kinds of dissenting opinions by Jewish scholars, and other scholars, to demonstrate that the ruling hypothesis is religiously biased toward Christianity. But as usual, Boris asserts, rather than demonstrates.

I’m actually much more sympathetic than most modern academics with minority or maverick opinions, provided they have some evidential basis. But Boris seems to make maverickness an end in itself, rather than a position arrived at due to the evidence. He thus appears always to be tilting at windmills.

Interesting opinion. On that point:

Discovery Institute: Their 2015 Tax Return | The Sensuous Curmudgeon (wordpress.com)

From this seat, it seems your sympathy is more based on whether these “mavericks” share your far-right, fundamentalist Christian, anti-secular ideology. And with such individuals, the critical thinking you apply to Boris’s claims goes straight out the window. I doubt I am the only one who sees it that way.

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That would be more convincing if you didn’t put your political views above science every time.

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Well, if “far right” means “against state-funded medical insurance,” I’m definitely not “far right”, since I support such insurance. And if it means “admirer of Donald Trump”, then I’m definitely not “far right,” since I can’t stand the man. “Traditional, moderate conservative” would best describe my political views. As for “fundamentalist Christian”, I’ve already adequately disproved that charge, by my numerous debates against fundamentalist Christians such as Paul Price right here on this site, and by my favorable remarks about Behe and Denton, whose views on evolution are well outside of fundamentalism. “Anti-secular” is the only partly correct label, and even that is misleading, since regarding most matters of law I’m in favor of a secular approach, e.g., not making any laws about sexual relations between consenting adults, and not passing any laws or enforcing any rules that would make either unbelievers or believers violate their religious consciences. What I’m “anti” is secular humanism as an enforced public ideology. But I don’t intend to answer your mischaracterization at length, as that would take the discussion off-topic. Let’s stick with the topic named at the top of the page.

That could only be the case if he paid any mind to the science whatsoever. No, with “Eddie” it’s 100% politics all the way.

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The Reverend George D’Oyly challenged William Drummond to find astronomical references in the Iliad and the Odyssey. Florence and Kenneth Wood accepted the challenge. “Not only a roll-call of forty-five Greek and Trojan regiments, but also the foundation of Homer’s star and constellation catalogue. Each of the twenty-nine Greek and sixteen Trojan regiments which fought at Troy is identified as a constellation and the commanders of those units are the brightest stars in the constellations.” It was discovered that the Iliad is not just a great poem but the accounts of armies, battles, wounding and deaths served as a mnemonic for pre-literate people which preserves the patterns and movements in the night sky. Yet today there are still people who think Homer is at least somewhat historical.

For any non-specialist here who would like a good popular summary of why most specialists think that Boris is wrong, see: What Language Did Jesus Speak? | Zondervan Academic.

The only honest way to phrase what specialists think but will never prove is that had Jesus actually existed so-called specialists have faith that Jesus may have spoken Aramaic. But we have no manuscript or other evidence of that faith based assertion. And my answer is Hitchen’s Razor: “What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

The subject has shifted over to something this crowd never heard of before which are the parallels between Homer and the Bible and specifically right now the gospels narratives. And as I could have predicted some of these supposedly science minded people became instant experts on the subject. “But the examples Boris gives are just lame.” This happened when I showed the examples of the astrological nature of the biblical narratives before. You Ed and the other experts on everything under the sun here had never heard about this but instantly knew I just had to be wrong. I’m not wrong.

Your position here is confusing. You sounded as if you were rejecting the view that Jesus spoke Aramaic, which to most readers would suggest that you thought he spoke some other language, e.g., Hebrew or Greek. But now you are suggesting that if he existed, he might well have spoken Aramaic, but he didn’t exist. How do you expect people to follow these shifts of yours?

I wrote a detailed reply addressed to your point that it was a specifically Christian prejudice that made people say Jesus spoke Aramaic, and now you are saying that you don’t really care what he spoke because he didn’t exist. Why should anyone reply to you with any seriousness if their replies are going to be tossed out as irrelevant, because you weren’t really serious about your statements? Why invest the time, when you aren’t interested in learning anything from conversation here?

Yes, but before it shifted, you made a number of false statements about my knowledge of Greek and my teaching of Greek. In light of the evidence I produced at your request, do you now withdraw those false statements?

The possibility of parallels, in itself, is a legitimate object of scholarly exploration. It does not follow that your examples are strong ones.

In fact, I am aware of a number of authors who have drawn attention to thematic parallels between ancient Greek literature (including but not limited to Homer) and the Gospels. My objection to what you have presented is not to your conclusions (which could be legitimate), but to the evidence and argument you present for them. Your standards for verified parallels are far too low; any superficial similarity will do.

This is an area where graduate training could have helped you. Had you submitted to such training, you might now be a professor publishing articles on Homer and Bible in peer-reviewed journals, and respected for the scholarly rigor you employ in establishing your parallels. But you decided to become an autodidact instead, and without supervisors to enforce rigorous reasoning and error-free philology, you slid into the typical rut of autodidacts. But it’s still not too late. Sign up for a grad program this Fall!

That is your subjective opinion. What about your standards? Do you believe in Satan, demons, angels, miracles? If you do then your standards are a joke.
Again:
The parallels pertain to plot elements and motifs, not copying. They conceal and reveal, occult and disclose. What Mark does is called trans-valuation which was quite common in antiquity. The source material for these emulations is known to the readers and so they recognize the trans-valuation’s attempt “to speak better.” Telemachus fed 4500 but Jesus fed 5000. Hector and Jesus both die at the end of the story but Jesus is raised from the dead.
Burials of Hector and Jesus
Iliad 24 — Mark 15:42-16:2
Iliad: Priam, king of Troy, set out at night to rescue the body of his son, Hector, from his murderer, Achilles.
Mark: When it was late, and since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a distinguished member of the council, who was also himself waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God.
Iliad: The journey was dangerous. He entered Achille’s abode, and asked for the body of Hector.
Mark: dared to go to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus
Iliad: Achilles was amazed that Priam dared to enter his very home.
Mark: Then Pilate was amazed that he might already be dead;
Iliad: Achilles sent two soldiers to get the ransom and summoned the maidservants to wash and anoint him.
Mark: and summoning the centurion , he asked him whether he had been dead for some time. [A woman earlier had anointed Jesus.] When he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the body to Joseph.
Iliad: Hector’s body had been saved from desecration.
Mark: [Jesus’ rapid death and burial saved the corpse from desecration.]
Iliad: So, when the maids had bathed and anointed the body sleek with olive oil and wrapped it round in a braided battle-shirt and handsome battle-cape, then Achilles himself lifted it and placed it upon a bier.
Mark: Then Joseph brought a linen cloth, and taking down the body, wrapped it in the linen cloth.
Iliad: [Hector’s bones would be placed in an ossuary, buried in the ground, and covered with stones.] [Priam left the body at night, and brought it to Troy for a fitting burial.]
Mark: and placed it in a tomb that had been hewn out of rock, He then rolled a stone against the door of the tomb.
Iliad: Cassandra was the first to see Priam coming with the bier in the wagon.
Mark: Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where the body was laid.
Iliad: Three women led the lament: Andromache, Hecuba and Helen.
Mark: When the sabbath was over Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome brought spices, so that they might go and anoint him
Iliad: After elaborate preparations, they buried Hector’s body at dawn.
Mark: And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb.

There are simply too many parallels for them to be coincidental. And we find plenty of them in both testaments.

Have you noticed this pattern: At least three-quarters of my corrections and objections to your posts go unanswered? Should I infer from this that you have no answer to three-quarters of my points?

Are you going to admit your error about my knowledge of Greek and teaching of Greek, or just let it slide out of view by remaining silent in the face of evidence? An honest academic always admits error and retracts.

That’s irrelevant to the question we are discussing. We are not discussing whether particular doctrines taught in the Bible are true. We are discussing whether the Biblical writers were influenced by earlier writers. That’s a philological, literary, and historical question, not a religious or metaphysical question. None of the people objecting to your arguments here are trying to get you believe in God, demons, miracles, etc. They are simply registering that they find your arguments unconvincing.