Is Helicase a House of Cards?

If I understand you well, you are saying that if the chance for an individual ticket to win a lottery draw is 1/10^125, someone would surely win. Ok, let’s see if his is true

Case 1: imagine that 10 millions people buy one ticket at a lottery draw where each individual ticket has 1/10^125 to win. The chance that you will get a winner would be 1 out of 10^7/10^125, that is 1 out of 10^118. In that case, would you say that a winner is likely?

Case 2: imagine now that all the inhabitants of the earth, let’s say 10 billions, buy one ticket of the same lottery draw. The chance that you will get a winner would now be 1 out of 10^10/10^125, that is 1 out of 10^115. In that case, would you say that a winner is likely?

Case 3: imagine that the 10 billions people of case 2 play the lottery game every day during one year. Here, the chance to get a winner would be 365.10^10/10^125, that is 3,65 chance out of 10^113. Still unlikely, isn’t it?

Case 4: finally, imagine that the 10 billion people could have played our lottery game every day of each year since the beginning of the earth, some 4 billions years ago. Here, the chance of getting a winner is 3,65x4.10^9/10^113, that is 1,46 chance out of 10^102!

You see, even by inflating the probabilistic ressources to the absurd, you still get an astronomical small chance to get a winner.

You just confirmed that you are using exactly the false assumptions that I stated you were. The claim that precursr systems that did not require helicase could not possibly exist is one that has not been supported.

We know helicase exists. It either was poofed into existence in its present form by some “unknown, unseen, untestable, undescribable” process, or thru the same sort of physical and chemical processes that underlie absolutely everything in existence as far as we can tell.

Now, which option sounds more like “theology”?

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Are you saying those who do understand and accept evolution do not understand this? If so, please support this accusation.

Part of what we are discussing is whether ID arguments accurately model evolutionary processes.

You seem to believe they do. If so, please show how you have determined that PRP8 could not have arisen thru evolutionary processes.

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You do not understand me.

There are roughly 10130 combinations of the 100 balls.

When I say that 10125 are winning, the idea I had in mind was that there are that many winning combinations published.

Thus every ticket has a roughly 10-5 probability of winning.

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There are two such laws: weak and strong. Both apply to sequences of samples drawn from a single probability distribution in the sense that each sample therefore has the same expected value (mean). The laws say that as the number of samples in the sequence grows, the average of the total sequence of samples gets closer and closer to the mean of the distribution. The technical meaning of “closer and closer” is the difference between the strong and weak laws.

When appealing to such mathematical results, ID armchair arguments usually ignore scientific, empirical constraints on the probability distributions. In the case of population genetics, there is no single mean because there is no single distribution. At a given time, the distribution varies between alleles because of mechanism like natural selection on fitness operating by allele and over the whole genome. Over time, the distribution varies because of the changes in the organism’s niche which change the fitness parameters of the distributions of the alleles. So trying to apply the laws of large numbers in science is fraught with challenges often ignored in ID armchair mathematics.

ID armchair probability also often ignores constraints on the sample space imposed by physics (eg entropy) and biochemistry (eg on viable and possible mutations). ID also often assumes probability distributions based on empirically unjustified statistical independence.

ETA: In particular, many ID enthusiasts take a priori math to dictate possible science. But science works the other way: the needs of successful scientific models determine the applicable math.

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Consider two examples. First, as has been pointed out repeatedly on PS, it is fairly routine to identify functional sequences using methods such as phage display and other random combinatorial mutagenesis (in the context of antibody backbones, for example). Certainly, ATP-binding, protein-protein interactions, and DNA-binding are among the functionalities that can be identified. Typically, the sizes of the domains range from 10-30 amino acids or so. Given the experiments, this means that the fraction of functional sequences in all of sequence space is about 1 in 10^10 (we will use very round numbers for now, to make things easy).

Now, this is for a 10-30 mer. In a collection of random polypeptides of, say, 100 amino acids, this frequency will be 10-fold greater – 1 in 10^9 or so random 100-mers will have at least one such functionality. 1 in 10^18 will have two different functionalities, 1 in 10^27 will have three, etc.

How does this relate to the “real world”? The second example recalls another oft-mentioned (on PS) protein, a gated ion channel with (at least) three functionalities – two protein-protein binding sites and a site for binding a smaller molecule. Given the history of this protein, we can assign a (very generous, for ID proponents) upper limit of about one in 10^28 for the frequency of co-occurrence of this collection of functionalities in a set of 100-mers. (This is very, very generous, and probably off by as many as 10 or more orders of magnitude, but we will use this unrealistic limit to make the point that follows.)

Now, look at the helicase video. One can see four functionalities – two protein-protein binding interfaces, an ATP-binding site, and a DNA-binding site. It isn’t hard to see that the frequency with which these four functionalities might occur in a 100-mer is going to be about 1 in 10^36 (using the most generous of assumptions here). For added context, recall that there are around 10^30 bacteria at any moment in the biosphere. Given the mechanisms by which we know new proteins arise, this means every bacterial generation gives is 10^30 or so new proteins. Depending on the growth rates (averaged across all species), this means that a 100-mer with the four functionalities described above will occur once every 10^4-10^5 years. That is for the most optimistic (for IDers) cases. It may be as often as once every day.

For a different perspective, consider a pond of dilute 100-mers – say, 1 nM in concentration. A (vey large) pond, one percent of the size of the Atlantic Ocean, will have enough 100-mers to include at least one proto-helicase.

Compare these numbers with those that Sal and other anti-evolutionists bandy about. There are more (many more) than 100 orders of magnitude of difference. Basically, Sal’s numbers are vastly different from what we see in direct and indirect measurement of the frequencies of function in sequence space. Which means that the appeal to the “Law of Large Numbers” is inappropriate, incorrect, just plain wrong. (The same goes for all the other ill-conceived attempts, from Axe to Behe to Meyer, to cast protein evolution in some vastly improbable light.)

To answer the question in the title of the thread - when it comes to evidence for design, helicases are indeed a house of cards.

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Have you calculated how much it would cost every man woman and child on this planet? :slight_smile:

In none of your examples were there 10^125 winning combinations. So you completely missed the point, I believe.

The question was whether multimerization was necessary. It isn’t, so your touting of multimerization as some insurmountable barrier to evolution fails.

Please name a hypothesis he has tested or advanced. If neither exists, he isn’t a scientist, is he?

If I grant you these numbers for the sake of argument how do you build an eye or a wing?

At what point do we admit that this dog does not hunt?:slight_smile:

Neither. The evidence shows that we can get specific catalytic activity from random sequences (2 x 110-residue variable regions) SEVERELY CONSTRAINED by the requirement to fit into the structure of an antibody to even be screened. The best description is that these V regions are like lips that kiss the antigen or substrate.

Thus, the frequency we get is an UNDERestimate of the frequency in unconstrained sequence space.

There’s no need to act like it’s just hearsay; you could search for yourself. Your reluctance to search the literature before claiming superior understanding is predictable.

You should grant those numbers for the sake of reality.

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Can you articulate, without error, the evolutionary arguments you are disputing? These arguments have been refined over many years. Most of the opponents I see misrepresent them.

And so the goalposts recede ever farther into the distance. But they appear to have gone out of your sight, as eyes and wings would require few if any additional proteins.

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These are questions of developmental biology. It is a good general rule that alterations in developmental programs will involve rather subtle (in biochemical terms) changes in protein-protein or protein-DNA interactions, and/or in the timings of gene expression.

No vastly improbable or unlikely events need be posited.

What does’t hunt is the core anti-evolution stance of the ID crew. They have absolutely no empirical support for any of their claims. As stated, their entire program is a house of cards.

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Sure, if you can find a deterministic mechanism. The current dog does not hunt:-) If you think I am wrong build a model.

Through slow incremental changes, generation by generation. The same way every other biological thing on the planet evolved over time.

Why do you need that explained to you so many times?

Because you have never explained it. Are you ignoring the population sizes in Arts proposal?