Is the Hebrew phrase, "formed from dust" a repudiation of normal childbirth for Adam?

@Guy_Coe,

You don’t have to get too anxious about this. Walton is not a literalist. He’s not even a fundamentalist.

So I don’t see how you can be so adamant about a translation that REQUIRES a rather loose interpretation.
As for God bringing Eve to Adam… I think you’ll find that when it DOES say that God brings Eve to Adam… he brings her to Adam after he first “takes her from Adam’s side”.
[Edit: sentence was incorrectly worded; now corrected]

Gen 2:21-22 "And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

In other words, he didn’t create a woman right there next to sleeping Adam. He prepared her from his “rib” (or side, or some other bone) at another part of the Garden, or on a hill, or in heaven, and then brought her complete to Adam.

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There are lots of places that our English translations are misleading and one has to go back to the Hebrew to get the real picture. This isn’t one of them. Now what these physical acts represent, that gets majestic, but the acts themselves are plainly represented.

@anon46279830,

I’ve always favored the interpretation that the “side thing” was not a rib… but the one bone that most mammals have, but human males do not have.

You’ve heard this proposal before, yes? As an etymological explanation for why all the other male mammals in the world have one and we don’t … I think it’s pretty clever!

Yes, in the context of preparing him for cutting him open, not in the context of giving him a vision. Again I am doing just what you have correctly advised me to do elsewhere. I am looking at the surrounding text for context. You are resorting to pulling out sentence fragments hoping to connect them to something else that happened elsewhere. Read it the way you admonished me to read it.

I have not heard that one. I am not hung up on it being a rib but see no reason to doubt that it was. I only heard that many men have an extra rib- to make up for the one taken from Adam.

That is totally false.

This is not a real thing…

I didn’t take it seriously. It was just something I heard when I was a kid.

Okay, kids; I’m pretty sure I’ve made myself clear. I may be the only evangelical going to these lengths right now to argue for the validity of this interpretation (I doubt it), but Mark, you really have to do some homework first. Josh, I’d appreciate a less broad statement from you re Walton, and George, I think you and I both enjoy hypotheticals, but your characterizations of the marginality of this simply are not accurate, in this case.
Getting late… aren’t we a boring Friday night bunch? Cheers!

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Mark, the rumor about the extra rib is absolutely false.

But I’m not sure how to interpret your comment, Joshua. “This is not a real thing?”
You mean, you think it is an idle fancy that nobody every really wrote about? Professor Ziony Zevit would contradict you on that!

But hey… it’s a novel idea… but it doesn’t really matter whether it was a rib or not. Our theology doesn’t change an iota!

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@Guy_Coe, I’m a flexible fellow.

But for you to be able to assert that, you have to at least have an article that agrees with you that the Walton view is NOT less than MOST.

But how can you believe the Walton view is MOST? If that had ever developed, we’d be reading about the take over of the Evangelical status quote all over the place.

It’s one thing to argue that Walton’s view is “generally viewed as viable” - - but I don’t think you could even find someone saying that much.

You are disputing the minority status of a very imaginative scenario… with no evidence or support for your position. You don’t want to go down that road, Guy… that’s the road where the YECs live!

:smiley:

Thanks, Josh, just now found it. Perhaps you didn’t notice the lengths I went to to distance myself from Walton’s categories? That said, the lingustics of this particular proposal are not to be too easily dismissed. George, if I said “most people disagree with you about whether God exists,” how could that do anything but annoy you without bringing us any closer to a resolution of the issues at hand? What would my statement, whether accurate or not, have anything to do with the truth in question? I’m saying that Josh’s initial statement was similarly overly broad. He’s at least tried to clarify it, now. And, perhaps you’ve noticed that he stayed away from the real question, viz., is the “vision only” interpretation okay with him? As a possibility, even? That Eve’s “material origins” (sic) were not being described there, but instead, her importance to Adam as his companion?

Problem is, Walton has this false dichotomy in his analysis, that Genesis only addresses God “assigning functions” and does not concern itself with “material origins.” As such, he places himself into a catch 22, and his detractors can now wield that as a club against him, because he has tried to split apart two inseparable things. God can’t assign functions to things in the material world that He hasn’t yet brought into material existence. That said, not every comment in Genesis is a comment about both things, simultaneously. In a vision, you can reveal what has yet to be seen, materially. That’s not really a controversial portion of his overall proposal.

I seem to be unique in the Evangelical world in thinking that Walton has been over-interpreted on “functional” v “material”. I was reading his “Lost World” stuff early on (because I’d been greatly impressed by a book he wrote, and I bought, 20 years before), and always got the impression he was placing his emphasis on functional categories, not excluding material ones. It’s to do with what ones mind concentrates upon.

So you go into a Gothic cathedral, and talk about it representing the vault of heaven, about the stained glass speaking of God’s light being seen through what is created, and so on - all functional talk. But you’re not denying that the thing is made of stone and has to follow basic architectural pronciples to stay up - it’s just that your concern is the spiritual function.

So granted that Genesis 1 is about God creating the world we see, is it concerned to say how God, as a builder, put it together, or how, as an architect, he wanted it to speak to us? I agree with Walton it’s the latter.

That said, he may very well be guilty of overstating his case (I learned in sociology that proponents of new theories almost always have to to make an impression), thus encouraging people to say “dry land is solid, not ‘functional.’”

I don’t think he helps himself by maintaining an “ancient science” material cosmology apparently hidden behind Genesis, seeming to suggest that they “really” thought of a solid raqia and a goldfish-bowl universe floating in infinite ocean, as in all those Victorian representations of “the ANE cosmos”. It’s ironic, since his old Ancient Israelite Literature in its Cultural Context was one of the first books to point out all the non-parallels with other ANE literature.

But his work enabled me to imagine that the writer of Genesis, and hence his readers, came into the cathedral of the world as those using it for worship, rather than as engineers wondering how the arches were put up.

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Excellent comments. Thank you for getting his drift so well. It is, indeed, an emphasis which he has simply wound up overcharacterizing.

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Here’s a quote from Walton directly on this topic, from a Christianity Today interview. Listen in to see if does anything really culpable, or truly controversial, here:
CT Editor: In what ways do you believe modern readers misunderstand Genesis?
Walton: “We are inclined to say, “This Hebrew word means this, and that Hebrew word means that.” It’s just not that simple. For instance, when we read the word make, we tend to think of material activity.
But if you look at how the Hebrew verb asah (“make”) is used throughout Hebrew Scripture, many times it’s not a material activity. In some contexts, asah means “provide” or “prepare.”
When we read about Adam being put into a “deep sleep” and Eve being “made,” we automatically think Adam is being put under for surgery. But an ancient audience wouldn’t have thought like that.
The Hebrew word for “deep sleep” is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to a visionary experience. That’s the way an Israelite reader would have [read Genesis 2].
So I believe this deep sleep for Adam was visionary, not a surgical operation. In other words, he sees something about Eve.”
CT Editor: Isn’t the claim that readers cannot properly understand Genesis without knowing Hebrew and the ancient Near Eastern culture just a form of scholarly elitism?
Walton: “It’s no more scholarly elitism than recognizing someone has to translate the Bible into English. Bringing the ancient text to us is not just a matter of word rendering; it’s a matter of understanding the culture in which it was written. We have to translate not only language but also culture. We all are dependent on the expertise of others. I’m never inclined to think that the exercise of one’s spiritual gifts or talents is elitism. I’m a hand, not an eye. And someone else is an eye and not a hand. That’s how the body of Christ works.”
As far as I’m concerned, these are all defensible, orthodox observations.

///Here is where his terminology starts to jar my sensibilities a bit, but the concepts he’s relating are defensibly sound.
I think his use of “archetype” is a bit too aloof. The NT definitely speaks of Adam as the first of a “type.” For me, that’s not quite the same thing as an “archetype.”///
Continuing:
CT Editor: What do you mean when you say Adam serves as an archetype for humanity?
Walton: --“Sometimes we confuse archetype with prototype. A prototype is the first one off the line, a model for the rest. But an archetype is more than that. It embodies and represents something or someone. So when Paul talks about all of us sinning in Adam, he is talking about Adam as an archetype. And, of course, Christ is an archetype too [as the Second Adam].”
///My comment: actually Jesus, as the “Logos,” is more like the prototype, the "firstborn of all creation. And, after His resurrection, he’s more like a prototype again. “We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”///
( Back to Walton)
“So to treat Adam as an archetype is to explain how he is being handled in the biblical literature. It’s not an assessment of whether he was a real person.”
///Now, that’s just a weird comment to make.///
“I believe Adam was a real person, but literarily he represents more than just who he was. He represents who we all are. Genesis is talking more about humanity and who we all are because of this guy. Paul does the same thing with Adam, so I think I’m in good company.”
CT Editor: The historic church affirms that Adam represented humanity, that we all sinned in him (Rom. 5:12). How, then, is your perspective different from the traditional view?
Walton: “The traditional view talks about Adam archetypally with regard to sin, which I affirm. But I believe Adam is also being used archetypally in respect to human origins. That is, when the text says Adam was formed from dust, it’s not saying that guy was formed from dust, and the rest of us are born of woman. It’s saying we all are dust. This is what humanity—adam, Hebrew for “humanity”—is. We are mortal, we are frail, we are earthy, we are dust. This is not a unique statement about Adam. It’s true of all of us.”

See, this is where his arguments run afoul of other experts. He has convinced essentially no one else in the field that this is correct. So either he is the one of the few right, and most everyone else is wrong, or he is wrong. The critique against him here is that his take on how ancient readers would read this is unfounded. They point to ANE literature too, emphasizing that ANE literature is about material origins.

That is all good and find, but Walton is an outlier here. The other experts disagree with him.


What ever the case, we can’t choose path forward that depends on an outlier view. Of course, everyone is welcome to draw from on a personal level. Do not, however, put all eggs in that basket.

Now, see --this is where the blinders about what’s familar come on. Have you researched among the Jewish scholars regarding this view? Have you looked at Ellicott’s and other commentaries about the feasibilty of this interpretation? Being the lone wolf in the midst of a hostile pack should seem somewhat familiar to you, I should think. What does being an “outlier” have to do with the truthfulness of what’s offered? In the midst of a potential paradigm change? How many scholars of His day lined up behind, say, Jesus Himself?
Methinks you speak a bit prematurely. I can easily point out the flaws in Jack Collins supposed “refutation;” you’ve only seen a couple so far…
We’ll see!

This is the only thing he can say …
But I think it is obviously missing the point. Ancient Cultures used alcohol to make surgery more bearable.

I’m not saying I agree with Collins. I’m just saying he does need to agree on all the particulars to be an ally.

On the science, I am not an outlier. I brought forward a several surprising theses, and defended them all. Everyone on the scientific side agrees I’m right. The only remaining conflicts are all theological.

I’m not saying Walton is wrong. I’m just saying that his ideas have been out there for a while, and strongly disputed. If you agree with him great. But his ideas have all the traction they are going to get. There is value in finding multiple theological models that all work with basically the same scientific scenario. That is all I am saying. I’m not anti-Walton, just saying there is more to the playing field than his view.

For example, look at Keller…

Do you really want to be the one to “set Keller” straight on this? Why find a way that works for him too?