Is there a difference between evolution and materialism?

[gbrooks9 (George)]

@Mercer

That seems Silly.

@Mercer

I bow effusely in the general direction of the Grammar Storm Troopers who delight in diverting discussions to spelling and punctuation…

[Agauger (Ann Gauger)]

@John_Harshman
In the report on suicide? Not here.
Or here, though it is suggestive.
This report below is surprisingly shallow, given its abstract. It is based on surveys of other published work concerning various religions, and basically says atheists favor end of life physician assisted suicide, but they didn’t know about anything else. All it says is that a person’s degree of religiosity (implied increased religiosity) protects against suicide.Not a strong case.

Religion and Suicide: Buddhism, Native American
and African Religions, Atheism, and Agnosticism
D. Lizardi Æ R. E. Gearing
Published online: 4 April 2009
Springer Science+Business Media, LLC 2009
Abstract Research has repeatedly demonstrated that religiosity can potentially serve as a
protective factor against suicidal behavior. A clear understanding of the influence of
religion on suicidality is required to more fully assess for the risk of suicide. The databases
PsycINFO and MEDLINE were used to search peer-reviewed journals prior to 2008
focusing on religion and suicide. Articles focusing on suicidality across Buddhism, Native
American and African religions, as well as on the relationship among Atheism, Agnosticism, and suicide were utilized for this review. Practice recommendations are offered for
conducting accurate assessment of religiosity as it relates to suicidality in these populations. Given the influence of religious beliefs on suicide, it is important to examine each
major religious group for its unique conceptualization and position on suicide to accurately
identify a client’s suicide risk.
Keywords Religion Suicide Buddhism African Native American
Agnostic Atheist
Introduction
Research supports the notion that suicidal behavior is influenced by one’s degree of religiosity. Greater religiosity is associated with decreased risk of suicidal behavior (Gearing
and Lizardi 2008; (Dervic et al. 2004; Martin 1984). In an earlier article, the authors
explored the relationship between religion and suicide across four major religions in the
United States (US): Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism. That review article
reported that Protestants have the highest suicide rate followed by Roman Catholics, and
Jewish individuals have the lowest rates of suicide (Gearing and Lizardi 2008). Empirical
evidence indicated that there are lower recorded rates of suicidal behavior among Muslims
when compared to other religions, such as Christianity or Hinduism (Abdel-Khalek 2004;
Ineichen 1998). Overall, however, the act of suicide is, to varying degrees, condemned
D. Lizardi (&) R. E. Gearing
School of Social Work, Columbia University, 1255 Amsterdam Avenue, New York, NY 10027, USA
e-mail: dl2298@columbia.edu

@Mercer
I hardly know where to start with your comments. So I’ll go with the beginning.

@Mercer

You mean you, right? Neither Patrick nor Pinker were being selective in only looking at one country.

Agauger:

The question that Pinker was addressing was the suicide epidemic _which is in the US, not world wide. To use a graph for the whole world to refute a US problem is definitely a misuse of statistics.

@Mercer

So Pinker wasn’t hiding any of the data at all. What’s the problem?

Pinker didn’t refer to the other graphs. Someone else linked to them in responding to his tweet.

@Mercer

Yes, and religion doesn’t appear to be a positive for youth that aren’t heterosexual:

Unfortunately, both you and I know why that is. It has a great deal to do with human nature. Being different is never comfortable, especially if you are viewed as a problem. I offer myself as evidence. And its not because you are religious that this happens, right?

@Mercer

Are you saying that the US is the only country that counts? Do you not realize that not all of the participants here are from the US?

Agauger:

In connection with a suicide epidemic in a materialistic culture this is the place to look first. But if you had checked the graph I offered, I also showed France, Germany, Switzerland and one other secular culture with a similar lifestyle. I offered for people to explore other countries. Apparently you didn’t. Australia had a rate that was climbing, most other countries declined.

@Mercer

The idea that people outside the US are people too?

The nerve of some people!

Now that just sounds foolish.

[Agauger (Ann Gauger)]

@John_Harshman

@John_Harshman

So, nothing about evolution or even atheism, right

In the report on suicide? Not here. And I’ve been looking.There is very little evidence that is trustworthy on either side, with too many confounding variables and too many shoddy studies published on the internet.

I was not “making it up.” I have seen it in print. But I haven’t found anything to back it up yet except anecdotes. So I was very sloppy in what I said about that article that started the whole thing. My sincere apologies. I am sure it was offensive; I wasn’t thinking about how what I said would affect you and Mercer.

[Patrick]

I agree that suicide and depression are problems we must deal with.

[Patrick]

@Agauger

My specific experience says drug dependence, mental illness, and abuse play a role.

Yes, a major role.

[Patrick]

@Mercer

Yes, and religion doesn’t appear to be a positive for youth that aren’t heterosexual:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=29550162

@Agauger This is a really important result, don’t you think?

[John_Harshman]

@gbrooks9

I consistently capitalize Consciousness because it IS important.

Do you capitalize everything you consider important? It seems odd.

So, apparently you’re saying that reason is useless in this particular sort of discussion. God exists because you need him to, and lots of other people do too, and nothing’s going to change your mind because you really need him to. Yes, that does seem hermetically sealed.

[John_Harshman]

@gbrooks9

Prove to me that your wife or children or anyone else is conscious

Well, at the moment she’s unconscious, but I expect that will change soon. I can’t of course prove anything outside of mathematics, but I could provide excellent evidence. I still can’t figure out what this has to do with anything. Please make that connection for me.

[gbrooks9 (George)]

@John_Harshman

I still can’t figure out what this has to do with anything. Please make that connection for me.

@John_Harshman,

You are the original “hard case”. I don’t think I could convince you that Homer was a real person.

[John_Harshman]

@gbrooks9

I don’t think I could convince you that Homer was a real person.

Of course he isn’t. And neither are Marge, Bart, Lisa, and Maggie. But I see you have abandoned any sort of argument, assuming you ever had one.

[Agauger (Ann Gauger)]

@Patrick

This is a really important result, don’t you think?

Yes. As I already said to Mercer, it is a consequence of human nature.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@Agauger

In connection with a suicide epidemic in a materialistic culture this is the place to look first.

No, gun ownership has the highest associations:

Firearm Ownership and Suicide Rates Among US Men and Women, 1981–2013

I suppose you can say that gun fetishes are a form of materialism.

[T_aquaticus]

@Agauger

I I am afraid that most of what I have seen falls into the camp of materialism of the most extreme kind, like the article I linked to. The kind of materialism that leads to despair, denial, suicide, anti-socialism, and worse. I have encountered it in science classes and lecture halls . I have encountered it in science textbooks and science magazines. I have encountered it in scientists themselves. I know there are scientists who don’t hold this view but I don’t know how they ground it in anything other than some sort of personal belief or philosophy above and beyond evolution.

Would you say the same of every other theory in science?

[T_aquaticus]

@Agauger

No. This not evidence of a correlation between religious faith and decreased suicide rate. My guess is it is multi-factorial. These curves are age standardized. There could be differences in the age structures that affect the curves, as different age groups have different risks. My specific experience says drug dependence, mental illness, and abuse play a role. That’s enough.

That’s my very limited experience as well.

Anecdotally, recently converted atheists often report a longing for the religious community that they once belonged to. One of the largest benefits of religion I have seen, at least in Western culture, is a group for people to belong to that helps support them. We are social animals, and we seem to function best within in a group, at least for most of us.

[T_aquaticus]

@gbrooks9

I am notorious for my references to cosmic rays. But it is my general understanding that mutations (aka, the imperfect replication of the original genetic code) can be triggered by any factor promoting heat, cold, excess molecules of water, lack of water molecules… the list is endless. All Quantum and non-quantum factors are eligible causes.

Given the patterns we see, most mutations are caused by known biochemical pathways and not be ionizing radiation. For example, CpG mutations happen at a high rate and this is because of DNA methylation of the cytosines which makes them susceptible to deamination. A purine base is more likely to to be switched out by the other purine base because they are chemically similar and enzymes that copy DNA can sometimes mistake one for the other. Genetic recombination often occurs through homologous recombination where similar sequences in single stranded DNA stick to each other and form loops of DNA that result in interesting results when they are copied and joined together.

You may want to check out my thread on mutations in case you are interested. I try to describe the mutations as products of biochemistry and try to stay out of the ontological arguments surrounding randomness.

Mutations Are Consistent With Biochemistry

In a previous thread I discussed what science meant by random mutations and how this term is defined by experimental results and statistics. A lot of this work was done in the 1940’s and 50’s, and since then many new facts have been discovered in the field of genetics, such as the discovery of DNA. This gave rise to the field of molecular biology and allowed us to understand biology at the molecular scale. So what exactly causes mutations? We once again have to reiterate the the limited scope of science. What science can do is put forward hypotheses and see if the evidence is consistent with that hypothesis. What science can not do is make ontological statements about absolute truth. With that in mind, the next few posts will discuss the evidence that links mutagenesis (the production of mutations) with the biochemistry of the cell and why scientists aren’t simply assuming that mutations are caused by biochemistry.

[Jordan (Jordan Mantha)]

It would actually be super cool to go back to the original questions in this thread.

Evolution and materialism, in a most basic sense, are obviously different. Evolution, as we are using it, is a fundamental theory of modern biology. Materialism is a philosophical position. I think the question is really more along the lines of one of the following:

1. Does the theory of evolution depend on materialism? Can you have evolution without materialism?
2. Does materialism depend on the theory of evolution? Can you have materialism without evolution?
3. Does evolution naturally support materialism? Does biological evolution make it easier to defend materialism?
4. Does materialism naturally support evolution? Does a materialistic worldview make it easier to defend evolution?

I think the answer to both 1 & 2 is no, they don’t depend on each other because you can have one and not the other.

I think the answer to 3 & 4 are tricker. Evolution does seem to be a big part of the answer to “how’d we get here?” for materialists. I think perhaps @swamidass and lots of evolutionary creationists, etc. would disagree with 4. I think they would say that evolution is neutral as to the question of materialism.

Thoughts?

[T_aquaticus]

@Jordan

Thoughts?

If we replaced evolution with Relativity or Germ theory in those questions, would it make a difference?

I get the sense that what we are really asking is if SCIENCE is materialism.

[Timothy_Horton]

@Jordan

Evolution and materialism, in a most basic sense, are obviously different. Evolution, as we are using it, is a fundamental theory of modern biology. Materialism is a philosophical position.

I find it amazingly disingenuous religious organizations like the DI who rail against materialism always single out evolutionary theory for attack. The fact is every last scientific field ever investigated relies 100% on materialism for repeatable and predictable results. When the DI starts producing hit pieces against chemistry and geology for being materialistic they at least won’t look like such flaming hypocrites.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@gbrooks9

But it is my general understanding that mutations (aka, the imperfect replication of the original genetic code) can be triggered by any factor promoting heat, cold, excess molecules of water, lack of water molecules… the list is endless. All Quantum and non-quantum factors are eligible causes.

I think you’re missing the fact that mutations don’t need a trigger. The base rate is never zero.

[Jordan (Jordan Mantha)]

@T_aquaticus

I get the sense that what we are really asking is if SCIENCE is materialism.

I agree, but I do think evolution is one of those areas that people use to test worldviews, a canary in the coal mine so to speak.