James Tour and his 60-day challenge

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@lee_merrill

Great, so please examine Peltzer’s arguments, and explain why he is wrong, he is certainly qualified enough (I posted his qualifications previously) to make statements about hydrothermal vents.

You’re claiming that he is knowledgable about much more than that. Your moving of the goalposts there is further evidence of dishonest intent.

@lee_merrill

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

But you still have not told me how hydrolysis enters the picture, when ATP is simply incorporated into a chain.

If you knew how cells use ATP, you would know where “hydrolysis enters the picture.” Molecular biology and biochemistry don’t get much more basic than that.

So I looked it up, and the description there involves ATP to ADP,…

You didn’t go into any depth, predictably. You’re afraid to.

@lee_merrill

which I knew about already,

If you didn’t know that it’s what we were referring to by “hydrolysis,” you don’t know.

@lee_merrill

nothing about incorporation into a chain, without changing ATP.

No one has claimed that it isn’t changed. Quit lying. You’re also lying because it one of the things mentioned in the first paragraph, “biosynthetic processes necessary to maintain life.” That covers RNA synthesis perfectly.

@Rumraket gave a detailed description that you predictably ignored.

@lee_merrill

So my question stands.

There are some obvious ways to look it up if you were even mildly curious, but those seem to be beyond your courage. You’re hopelessly and aggressively ignorant, combining that with a toxic cocktail of ego and dishonesty.

@lee_merrill

Here is one paper Peltzer was involved in, on the contents of hydrothermal vents and cold seep systems,

Which has nothing to do with OOL.

@lee_merrill

and here is an interview where he gives reasons the hydrothermal vent origin of life molecules is implausible,

Why should I care? He’s not an expert and unlike you, I’m a biochemist and examine the evidence for myself.

@lee_merrill

I didn’t find a paper about his opinion on hydrothermal vent OOL, but he does have expertise in hydrothermal vents and their contents.

Again, so what? Your touting him as an expert on OOL is deeply dishonest.

@lee_merrill

@Mercer

If you bothered to look up PCR, you could answer both questions easily. What’s the temperature range of PCR? Do any of the molecules involved “go to pieces”?

It appears they do!

No, it doesn’t!

@lee_merrill

From WIkipedia: “Denaturation: This step is the first regular cycling event and consists of heating the reaction chamber to 94–98 °C (201–208 °F) for 20–30 seconds. This causes DNA melting, or denaturation, of the double-stranded DNA template by breaking the hydrogen bonds between complementary bases, yielding two single-stranded DNA molecules.”

Then what happens? What happens to the polymerase at what temperature?

@lee_merrill

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

asked Hunt to address this, and please show me where he explained how Axe’s responses to four common objections do not address the issues, and so on?

And he did, in detail. Stop lying.

Apparently, he didn’t, since it appears you can’t point me to a link where he did that.

I can. You’d simply ignore it and continue to lie.

@lee_merrill

@Mercer

Again, the only qualification you consider is whether someone agrees with you. Thus, someone who hasn’t published in the primary literature in more than 21 years magically becomes a 9/10 in my field!

But I’ve given a number of reasons that Axe is well-qualified,

None of them hold up to seconds of scrutiny.

@lee_merrill

and evidence his work has held up.

None whatsoever. I note that you disregard the same type of evidence WRT OOL. Why the blatant hypocrisy?

[lee_merrill]

@Faizal_Ali

@lee_merrill

See the above quoted exchange, you are getting off track, the “home run” analogy was mine, and you never challenged me to provide an example of scientists claiming to have hit a “home run”.

I have already quoted the exact comment where I did just that. I am not doing it again. If you don’t mind being publicly exposed as a liar, that is not my problem.

You did pick up my analogy, and tried to refute it, and I responded. But no scientist used that analogy, to my knowledge, this was a mistaken claim you made.

@Faizal_Ali

@lee_merrill

The first challenge I answered was your claimed that the homochirality problem was now solved,

I made no such claim.

Why then did you post the paper?

@Faizal_Ali

@lee_merrill

What about what Axe actually wrote?

What about it? Art Hunt and others have pointed out serious methodological shortcomings in his paper that completely invalidate his central claim to have determined the proportion of proteins in his study that have beta-lactamase activity. All Axe did was make some silly analogy to words in a sentence. @Rumraket has already explained that, not only is the analogy inapt, but if it was apt it would invalidate Axe’s own conclusions.

You have been unable to refute this.

Actually, Rumraket did not respond to my latest post on this. I made a reply to his latest point, which was not addressed.

@Faizal_Ali

@lee_merrill

It’s the first example I came up with, actually, and it seemed to illustrate the point quite well. And are you saying the contents match the headline?

Yes. And, even if it didn’t, it was not an OoL scientist who wrote the headline.

They certainly don’t match! Two out of four RNA nucleotides is not arguably about “life molecules” in general. And any editor in Science, who presumably read the paper, should be able to summarize it accurately.

@Faizal_Ali

I repeat: If this is really the only kind of example you can scrape up

Um, I repeat, this was the first example that came up, and I thought it good enough to illustrate the point.

@Faizal_Ali

…it hardly confirms the sweeping and inflammatory accusations Tour is making. He owes everyone in the field of OoL research a humble apology.

I think the best confirmation of Tour’s claims is that no one has refuted them. Especially his challenges this thread is about, going without answers, notably in papers people have presented here.

@Faizal_Ali

@lee_merrill

And my reply has been, that if you claim the problem has been addressed, and then your solution is shown to be wrong, and then you get half-way to where you had claimed to be, but just with RNA nucleotides, not with “life molecules”, you are not making net progress.

Of course, since that is not something that actually happened, your claim is worthless.

That’s what you posted said, though, two RNA nucleotides of four had a possible path now. Nothing about all the life molecules that need to be homochiral.

@Faizal_Ali

You still insist that Axe accurately measured the proportion of proteins in his study that had beta-lactaimase activity, correct? That tells us all we need to know about your honesty and intelligence.

Yes, and accepting the implications of his paper seems both honest and intelligent, until someone refutes him.

@Faizal_Ali

@lee_merrill

I keep challenging people here to point me to one purported problem that has gone unaddressed, for which the ID people here have had no good answer.

What is wrong with dozens of answers you have already been given?

Um, that’s not an answer, not even one answer.

@Faizal_Ali

@lee_merrill

@Faizal_Ali

Then what is this, then? Show me where you, Axe or anyone else has shown how the concerns raised by Art Hunt are not valid. Go ahead.

Art Hunt to Doug Axe: Invitation to Discuss

Did you miss this, in the thread you referenced?

I did not deny that your wrote lots of lies and idiotic claims that you seem to believe, incorrectly, were meaningful responses. That is not what I asked for.

Well, it was, actually, Joshua Swamidass mentioned something pertinent, I mentioned my discussion with Art Hunt, and Axe did respond to Hunt’s initial concerns, and no one has shown how his counterpoints were wrong, or irrelevant. Those were meaningful responses, which you did ask for…

[Rumraket (Mikkel R.)]

The most hilarious thing is how this guy still doesn’t understand that ATP is used to make RNA in living cells right now. Imagine if you were to try to explain to him where the energy ultimately comes from?

But hey, we’re talking to a man who appears to believe he’s been possessed by a demon. He’s basically the “delirious” person he kept blathering about in his botched argument against a physical basis for thinking. There is no reason to keep interacting with him.

[lee_merrill]

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

Great, so please examine Peltzer’s arguments, and explain why he is wrong, he is certainly qualified enough (I posted his qualifications previously) to make statements about hydrothermal vents.

You’re claiming that he is knowledgable about much more than that. Your moving of the goalposts there is further evidence of dishonest intent.

What goalposts have been moved? I claimed he knows oceanography, I also mentioned specifically hydrothermal vents, so now please examine his points about vents, and explain why he is wrong. I conclude you believe he is wrong, now please back that up.

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

@Mercer

If you knew how cells use ATP, you would know where “hydrolysis enters the picture.” Molecular biology and biochemistry don’t get much more basic than that.

So I looked it up, and the description there involves ATP to ADP,…

You didn’t go into any depth, predictably.

I did go into more detail, and saw even more detail that I didn’t mention.

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

nothing about incorporation into a chain, without changing ATP.

No one has claimed that it isn’t changed. Quit lying. You’re also lying because it one of the things mentioned in the first paragraph, “biosynthetic processes necessary to maintain life.” That covers RNA synthesis perfectly.

Rumraket certainly seemed to, he said it was like nucleotides, which don’t become different molecules when they are incorporated. And ATP is incorporated without change inside living cells? I don’t think so. But maybe you meant something else.

@Mercer

@Rumraket gave a detailed description that you predictably ignored.

I actually responded to him, as I recall, he left off responding to me, please post a link if I didn’t respond somewhere, and I will respond.

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

So my question stands.

There are some obvious ways to look it up if you were even mildly curious

I did look into hydrolysis, and didn’t find anything like ATP being incorporated without change, like a nucleotide.

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

and here is an interview where he gives reasons the hydrothermal vent origin of life molecules is implausible,

Why should I care? He’s not an expert and unlike you, I’m a biochemist and examine the evidence for myself.

Apparently you haven’t examined Peltzer’s evidence! And it’s not allowed to be knowledgeable in other areas than your main field? He does mention having an interest in OOL, he was even a student of Stanley Miller, and had many discussions with him about OOL. You may have heard of Stanley Miller. And you implied he was wrong, if you don’t care to defend your claim, you’re not going to convince anyone. And if you don’t care to convince anyone, why do you post in this forum? Why do you respond to me?

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

From WIkipedia: “Denaturation: This step is the first regular cycling event and consists of heating the reaction chamber to 94–98 °C (201–208 °F) for 20–30 seconds. This causes DNA melting, or denaturation, of the double-stranded DNA template by breaking the hydrogen bonds between complementary bases, yielding two single-stranded DNA molecules.”

Then what happens? What happens to the polymerase at what temperature?

I posted that part to show that the molecules of interest do disassemble at the denaturation stage at such temperatures. This refutes your claim that they didn’t. And yes, they then lower the temperature for an annealing phase, but I could point out for one, that hydrothermal vents don’t vary their temperature like that, certainly not in a controlled way and so specifically.

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

Apparently, he didn’t, since it appears you can’t point me to a link where he did that.

I can. You’d simply ignore it and continue to lie.

So who is ignoring who here?

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

@Mercer

Again, the only qualification you consider is whether someone agrees with you. Thus, someone who hasn’t published in the primary literature in more than 21 years magically becomes a 9/10 in my field!

But I’ve given a number of reasons that Axe is well-qualified,

None of them hold up to seconds of scrutiny.

But you haven’t refuted any of them! You certainly haven’t investigated what I’ve said.

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

and evidence his work has held up.

None whatsoever. I note that you disregard the same type of evidence WRT OOL. Why the blatant hypocrisy?

Actually, what is happening is for the most part, I make points, and you dismiss them.

[lee_merrill]

@Rumraket

The most hilarious thing is how this guy still doesn’t understand that ATP is used to make RNA in living cells right now. Imagine if you were to try to explain to him where the energy ultimately comes from?

That’s fine, and that’s quite different than incorporating ATP itself into a chain, like a nucleotide.

@Rumraket

But hey, we’re talking to a man who appears to believe he’s been possessed by a demon.

Actually, I don’t say that, certainly I say I’ve experienced oppression, pressure from demonic sources, successfully resisting this. That would not be possession, where it’s like a demon takes over.

@Rumraket

He’s basically the “delirious” person he kept blathering about in his botched argument against a physical basis for thinking.

It’s strange then, that you all point out unreasoning causes for what I say, delirium in this instance, so therefore you can reject my statements. You illustrate my view very well. People recognize this principle, and apply it all the time.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@lee_merrill

What goalposts have been moved?

Your lie was:

@lee_merrill

One basic problem is that complex molecules go to pieces in the kind of temperatures found in hydrothermal vents.

@lee_merrill

so now please examine his points about vents,

No. I do evidence, not hearsay.

@lee_merrill

I conclude you believe he is wrong, now please back that up.

You believe that you and he are right, now back that up. You never will, because you are lying.

@lee_merrill

I did go into more detail, and saw even more detail that I didn’t mention.

The tiny bit you did mention shows that you don’t have a clue.

@lee_merrill

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

nothing about incorporation into a chain, without changing ATP.

No one has claimed that it isn’t changed. Quit lying. You’re also lying because it one of the things mentioned in the first paragraph, “biosynthetic processes necessary to maintain life.” That covers RNA synthesis perfectly.

Rumraket certainly seemed to,

That’s because you have trouble with basic English.

@lee_merrill

he said it was like nucleotides, which don’t become different molecules when they are incorporated.

That’s not all he wrote. He was perfectly clear:

@Rumraket

Technically polymers of DNA and RNA contain a phosphodiester bond, which you don’t find in the monomers. However (NMP)n is a commonly used description of polymers of RNA, in that the elongation reaction can be described as:
(NMP)n + NTP → (NMP)n+1 + PPi

You don’t understand that, but you pretend to, which is a violation of the Ninth Commandment.

@lee_merrill

I actually responded to him…

You did not respond to his explanation I quoted above. You just pretended it didn’t exist. An honest Christian who didn’t understand it would ask questions, but you’re not honest.

@lee_merrill

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

So my question stands.

There are some obvious ways to look it up if you were even mildly curious

I did look into hydrolysis, and didn’t find anything like ATP being incorporated without change, like a nucleotide.

Lee, stop lying. You obviously don’t understand high-school molecular biology, but you pretend to, which violates the Ninth Commandment.

@lee_merrill

Apparently you haven’t examined Peltzer’s evidence!

What evidence? Opinions aren’t evidence.

@lee_merrill

And it’s not allowed to be knowledgeable in other areas than your main field?

You have no idea who’s knowledgeable about what, particularly since you claimed a mere postdoc is a 9/10 in his field.

@lee_merrill

He does mention having an interest in OOL, he was even a student of Stanley Miller, and had many discussions with him about OOL. You may have heard of Stanley Miller. And you implied he was wrong…

Another lie. I clearly stated that opinions aren’t evidence. OOL research has come a long way since Miller died 18 years ago.

@lee_merrill

I posted that part to show that the molecules of interest do disassemble at the denaturation stage at such temperatures.

That’s another lie. That wasn’t your claim. PCR can’t amplify DNA if it “goes to pieces,” can it? DNA is locally denatured for every function it mediates. Cooling denatured DNA causes it to renature. So, claiming that denaturation supports your lie is yet another in a firehose of lies you’ve spewed here.

Does the DNA polymerase get denatured?

@lee_merrill

but I could point out for one, that hydrothermal vents don’t vary their temperature like that,

You could, but that would be dishonest. What happens to the polymerase?

@lee_merrill

But you haven’t refuted any of them!

Every single one of them. You, OTOH, supported none of your assertions.

@lee_merrill

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

and evidence his work has held up.

None whatsoever. I note that you disregard the same type of evidence WRT OOL. Why the blatant hypocrisy?

Actually, what is happening is for the most part, I make points, and you dismiss them.

You just made my point by disregarding the OOL papers.