Jeremy Christian's claim that Genesis Creation account is Scientifically Accurate

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401

This is a great example of how this different beat in the story that GA introduces isn’t being given nearly enough consideration around here in my opinion. I understand there’s a specific intention, and that this kind of thing is rightly considered to be left to the churches, but come on.

When I first found you guys, after 10 years all by myself, I was thrilled to have found a whole group of knowledgeable people who already buy into the “there were humans before Adam” idea. I couldn’t wait to get into the kinds of discussions I was certain I’d see. No disrespect, but you guys have really let me down on this front.

Anyway, read that above line from Romans again…

“not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members…”.

… but with this in mind…

Remember the story was all about the Israelites not following the rules they were given. That’s free will. Free will is an element in the story that effects everything.

A lot of those rules God gave them had to do with exactly how the Israelites were supposed to stay away from others outside of their group. Don’t wear clothes that make you look like them, don’t intermingle, and don’t breed with them.

God is breeding from Abraham, then from Isaac. This is God creating in an environment He does not have full control over.

So, that line above, “not all who are born into the nation … are truly members”. That, in my eyes, is saying rules were broken. The Israelites are not a true “image of God” as they would have been if God were truly in control of their behaviors and actions. The stamp of free will is on them, making them not entirely a creation of God, but created by both God and them.

402

Yes, because God has a specific intention here. Choosing Noah, testing and choosing Abraham, this is a specific bloodline He’s breeding. He tests for favorable characteristics, then chooses who He breeds through.

So, yes, during that whole stretch of history, God was getting all involved. But I don’t think that extends beyond the birth of Jesus. From that point on salvation was about belief, so He stepped back out of sight to allow all to choose Him… freely.

403

All of these philosophical ideas you’ve extracted from this, in my eyes, is why I don’t put a whole lot of stock in the history of Theology. It’s not their fault. And I’m not ‘dissing’ them in any way. They just only had so much information.

There is, of course, much wisdom to be mined from the history of theology, and I recognize that. But all of the stuff you extracted from this and have then applied to your understanding of how God operates in yours and everyone else’s life, that all gets wiped away and clarified in what I would call the “proper” context.

404

@Jeremy,

First, Romans 9 is not popular.

Second, not being a “true member of Israel” is not the same thing as not being human, or not having free will. It’s a completely different characterization.

Third, pursuing the narrow minded nature of this characterization is an aspect of narrow denominationalism. You aren’t going to win consensus by chasing after it.

Capeesh?

405

No, no… By this point in the story every human in the region was entirely human and with free will. The humans of the world without free will wouldn’t be caught dead associating with these city-folk.

I don’t want that to be misunderstood. I know some things I’ve said have alarmed you and others a time or two, but once the whole picture from this perspective (right or wrong) can be seen, you will see that it’s a very inclusive picture. Nobody get’s disrespected or relegated to some sub-human status.

406

@Jeremy_Christian

Why do you write “No, No”… when you are agreeing with me? You really can’t help yourself, I guess, right?

By definition your position cannot be inclusive it is insisted upon.
Try to write less… and that way there is less to cross-out when you realize how much it reads like barking sounds …

407

Because you and Joshua both have shown concern about what I’m suggesting somehow demeaning specific groups of people. I got the impression by what you were saying that that is what you thought I was suggesting.

In this view there’s no “chosen people” or anyone more important or favored by God than anyone else. In fact, what was done by God here was, from the beginning, intended to be all of humanity. Not any specific group.

408

@Jeremy_Christian

Your memory is completely shot…

The trouble began when you tried to insist that evolved humans didn’t have free will.

From that… everything else just flew to pieces. Forget the “chosen people” angle for now … unless you plan to make things worse by connecting chosen people to this or that group that did or doesn’t have free will.

If you drop the differences in Free Will… that’s about 50% of the load of awful that you’ve been carrying around trying to sell.

409

I can’t drop it. It’s central to everything. I’m looking for truth and that’s one I’ve found. Don’t expect anything to actually make sense to you until you realize that. Free will IS the meaning of life.

The problem, which has been more of an issue in this group than anywhere, is the term “free will” carries with it a lot of baggage. Like with creation, there’s a lot of preconceived concepts, tied to it. Concepts primarily born of ideas formed long before humanity had enough information to really “get it”.

Let me try to put it in a more science-y context.

We know what we know about the natural world because the behavior of all the elements, all the matter/energy, of this universe is consistent. So consistent that we’re able to define natural laws by observing the consistencies in the behavior of the material world. Right?

We, our bodies and brains, are made of these same elements. So, it stands to reason, if we are truly (body/mind/soul) products of the natural material we’re made of, then free will is impossible. We have no more choice in our choices/behaviors than a rock has in choosing it’s course while rolling down a hill.

Have you ever seen one of those atheist memes that has the little arrow pointing at a little spec on the edge of the milky way galaxy that says “God’s favorite planet”? I’m sure you have.

Well, we on this little planet, are the only things in all the universe, that don’t conform strictly to the natural law of the universe. Free will is why the God of this expansive universe would be so keenly interested in our little planet.

I can’t understate how significant a free will is. What we are able to do actually creates things in God’s universe that are not “of God”. That’s a really big deal.

Now, I’m off into the bushes with my torch. I’ll be back.

410

@Jeremy_Christian,

Now there you go, Jeremy… your Intolerant Zeal isn’t all nice and tucked in.

If you are correct, then those people so inclined will come to the conclusion on their own without making it a mandatory part of Genealogical Adam.

How many times is this going to be explaind to you? @swamidass, perhaps we could
prepare “the Chamber” for this one?.. You know what I mean by the chamber, right?
Where the screaming never stops?

When you say there are a lot of preconceived notions about Free Will… this is why
Free Will is not particularly desirable as a mandatory pre-manufactured idea. It’s like
insisting that everyone buy and wear these shoes:

image

If the time comes where the shoes are self-evidently necessary, it would still be left
up to the individuals for when they would buy them, and whether they would buy
one or two…

So you can put the “compulsory certificates” back in the little drawer where
you keep your rubber ducky.

411

How would that chamber respond if you walked in with answers to long standing mysteries of the origins of civilization found because of the integration of science with the bible? Rather than just justifying the A/E story in the eyes of science, illustrating how actually integrating the A/E story into our human history potentially solves some of those long standing mysteries about our obscure and foggy origin story?

This isn’t about theological answers or what denomination has what right or wrong. It is still, to this day, not understood how exactly humanity transitioned from migrating hunter gatherers to civilization builders.

Free will is a real thing. And I can show you. Do me a favor, one of these days, read this book …

412

Asking me to drop this is like me asking you to drop evolution. Does that make you intolerant if you don’t?

413

@Jeremy_Christian

  1. Yes, Free Will is a real thing.
  2. All real things do not have to be included in the Genealogical Adam Scenario Kit
  3. Resurrection is even MORE real than Free Will if you ask me, and I don’t believe
    it will be a part of the Genealogical Adam scenarios either.
  4. What is it about “Thou Shalt Not Be An Insistent Pain in the Tookis” that is so impervious to your mind?
  5. @swamidass, we need to change the thermostat setting in the chamber for this one…
414

AHHHHH!!! Perfect @Jeremy_Christian.

Is this scenario designed to resolve the intolerable conflict between FreeWillists and the foolish Non-FreeWillists?

Ummmm… no.

The point of PeacefulScience and Genealogical Adam is to resolve the question of Creationism and Evolution.

The fact you need to be constantly agitated on this matter… BEFORE turning on the rinse cycle suggests to me that you were dropped on your head as an infant, and nobody ever told you.

415

Right, not all things. As it stands now you’re pushing in this chamber this idea that after totally populating the planet with humans, God created two more just like all the rest, for whatever reason, and added them too.

416

@Jeremy_Christian

I’m going to make a prediction.

I’m predicting that you are going to devote all the energy you have in the world to attacking @swamidass’s Genealogical Adam scenarios… tooth and nail… and you will never let up until
Joshua is old and doesn’t even remember your name.

Watch out for the man with the black hat… ANY black hat…

417

Right. Exactly. That’s exactly what this does.

Once you finally realize what I’ve been trying to tell you this whole time, you’re going to feel really silly for being so stubborn about it.

418

I’m not attacking it. I’m trying to show you just how much more there is to support it.

419

“So I’m wondering what you think is so necessary?”

Couldn’t answer in that other thread, so answering here.

Free will is necessary. What’s the point of going through the motions of life if you only work according to God’s will and don’t actually live your own life and make your own mark and your own mistakes?

420

@Jeremy@Christian

Everybody except Calvinists know this. But you seem to have a compulsion to require it be looked at in a special Jeremy-sorta-way.

I would suggest it is better to leave it to the individual. What you seem to add to any equation is contentiousness… so I doubt if you are going to be adding any positive value with how you parse out Free Will.