Kitzmiller, the Universe, and Everything

Yes. Because we know that cars are made by people. And we tend to know what people-made things look like. (People paint and polish surfaces. People mold metal into shapes which people find attractive. People mold, etch, emboss, and engrave letters on everything from tires to chrome to dashboard consoles.)

Detecting design in the case of cars is about detecting people-made things.

What is your definition of “unique biological system”?

My late father and I each had unique genomes—which helps explain our differences in size and appearance and abilities. So did we each constitute a “unique biological system”? (Of course, you did use the word “probably.” I agree. We were each unique as individuals.)

Evidence? Or is this nothing more than the Argument from Personal Incredulity fallacy?

I detect design because I know from personal experience what people-designed objects and systems tend to look like.

Of course, my people-design detection sometimes fails me, such as when I find a polished object on a beach. It may look like a stone polished by the ocean surf over time but it may also pass for a stone polished by a professional gemnologist. I can’t tell the difference.

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You are subscribing to a sort of biological Zeno’s paradox here. But we can, indeed, walk to the wall.

We have lots of fossilized records demonstrating exactly that. Archaic horses to modern, turtle shells, birds, whales, manatees, fish to amphibian, the list keeps growing with each passing year of exploration.

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Oh dear. Bill once againg trots out his long discredited “a disembodided mind did it!” Creationist claim. I suppose we’ll have to go over the refutation for the thousandth time.

So can non-intelligent natural processes. Therefore finding functional sequences in biological life isn’t evidence life was purposely designed.

No, a mind by itself can’t arrange parts because it has no mechanism to physically manipulate matter or energy.

“Purpose” implies steps taken to achieve a desired result. Biological life exhibits no such purpose.

Non sequitur when describing biological life.

Non sequitur when describing biological life.

Bill will ignore these points like he always does of course. Most people learn from their mistakes and don’t repeat them, but Bill isn’t most people. :slightly_smiling_face:

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On the standard all science uses, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence beyond your personal say-so.

Ah. Yes. Those people aren’t actually scientists. None of them actually do scientific research.

No, that’s not a reason to think cats needed design. It would, however, support the claim that no known intelligence can design a cat, which would in turn result in the conclusion that cats are not designed.

Yes, but you live in a world where you know how things like cars and PCs get designed and manufactured by humans. So, unlike the case of the cat, we have both a capable intelligence that designs computers and cars, and also ample evidence that this is how all computers and cars come about.

– Buzzer sounds – wrong answer, and not even an answer. The faunal succession plainly demonstrates that we DID get panthers from fish in small steps.

I detect design because I live in a world where, rather than PCs reproducing and experiencing modification by descent over hundreds of millions of years, PCs did not exist when I was a child. When my father was a child, transistors did not exist. But I am familiar with actual, well-documented human advances in technology, such as Bell Labs’ invention of the transistor in the 1940s and the later invention of such things as integrated circuits. I can visit a semiconductor factory where people actually make integrated circuits using machines which humans built. I can watch people actually making these circuits and assembling computers from them. I have done electronic assembly myself and know the methods employed, and have personal experience that these methods can be understood and implemented by people who have been supplied the parts that come from factories where electronic components are made.

Cats, on the other hand, are made by reproductive processes which are in no way similar to any of that. While this does not EXCLUDE the possibility of some ancestor of theirs being designed, it means that nothing about the complexity of cats can be assumed to originate from the same sources that account for the complexity of a PC. And since no known designer CAN design a cat, the proposition that they are designed is fanciful at best.

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Nos 1 and 2 are wrong . A mind cannot do those things. A body with a functioning brain can, but those requires that complex functional arrangements proteins already exist. So you have a chicken/egg problem, which ID Creationists seem to have no interest in addressing.

IOW, minds seem unable to accomplish the very thing you claims a mind is needed to do. And you see no problem with this?

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What standard do you base this objection on? Every time I ask this question I get subjective answers.

You don’t like ID I get it but at least make coherent arguments. You asked a very good question earlier.

The total absence of so much as a single word written by the ID’ers addressing this problem. Unless you’d care to provide some citations to where they have suggested mechanisms by which a mind capable of creating DNA could arise in the absence of the brain that requires DNA to exist.

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Is that going to be your new go-to phrase to dodge scientific criticisms? Time to retire “how will you test that” and “what is your mechanistic explanation”? :slightly_smiling_face:

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You first have to establish it is a problem which means the condition you brought forward makes the claim outside science. Otherwise you are making an arbitrary objection which will eventually be dismissed.

The test establishes the capability of the mechanism. The scientific method allows great freedom on how to test as long as the hypothesis is verified. The mechanism is not necessarily the only causal factor required for the effect observed. It is the primary causal factor not the only causal factor.

You don’t have any causal factors at all, however. You have a collection of bad analogies which say “if X was designed, Y must have been designed,” where X and Y are radically different things. You have no evidence, whatsoever, that any intelligent input actually takes place in biological evolution. As I have pointed out, Behe, whom you cited in your support, needs this to be an ongoing process, so you should have no difficulty in finding examples of it actually happening. Until you do, who could possibly care how many bad analogies the ID crowd can craft?

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You keep saying biological life was designed and manufactured by a disembodied mind with no mechanism to physically manipulate matter. You really don’t see that as a problem for your claim? :roll_eyes:

You haven’t provided a physical mechanism Bill. In fact all you do is duck the problem. You also have not provided any evidence an external intelligence was responsible for any information bearing sequences in genomes. Saying “human minds can produce sequences” says NOTHING about sequences in biological life.

It’s based on the standard honest scientists address problems with their ideas and don’t try to dodge with and empty bluster and a cloud of squid ink. ID-Creation seems to not have any scientists willing to adhere to the honesty standard.

I would modify this a bit, Puck. I suggest:

The scientific method gives no evidence of a designer, intent, or purpose.

Best,
Chris

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I certainly understand what you mean by that edit. But that’s the function of the word “demonstrated” in my statement. He may believe, like Dembski, in a mystic vision of the Logos, glimpsed in the guise of a horrible, horrible analogy. But empirically, all he has is a horrible, horrible analogy, and when he thinks he sees it filled with light, that’s just the battery indicator making an “empty” warning.

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so a scientist who dont believe in evolution isnt a scientist? that is weird definition to me.

so if i will find UFO on other planet i cant detect design since i never seen somone who make a UFO? also remember that we do live in a world where designers make genomes. so according to this genomes are also the product of design?

no its not. a designer can make different groups of creatures in different geological times.

its like saying that sincne no designer on earth can make a space shuttle that can fly at the speed of light- thus such a shuttle dont need design.

even if we will find a PC that can reproduce- we will conclude design. thus a cat that can reproduce (and no less complex than a PC) need design. see also my UFO example.

It’s not a definition. It’s a useful indicator.

The definition of “scientist” does not include the criterion “Not a porcupine.” However, is we are trying to determine whether something is a scientist, and it is a porcupine, that is good reason to conclude it is not a scientist

Yes, but why is that? Walk us thru your logic and that might help you appreciate the error you are making.

The testing method can be very different than an example of the actual cause that is inferred from inductive reasoning. The test that showed the sun deflecting light from a star during a solar eclipse is very different than the occurrence of a black hole or a worm hole. The test simply demonstrates the capability of the mechanism. For ID humans are the testbed.

ID is science based on the standards of science. All you are left with is subjective non scientific arguments that violate proper philosophical standards.

Testing human ability to create designs says absolutely nothing about any design in biological life. How many thousands of times do you need that pointed out to you before it sinks in?

Based on the standards of science ID-Creationism isn’t anywhere close to being scientific. It will never be science unless some ID-Creationists come up with some testable hypotheses and actually test them.

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No. A scientist who does not work in actual science is not a scientist; if you’d bothered to actually read my response to you, you would have understood that.

Have you found a UFO on another planet? Find one, and then we’ll talk. But there is no resemblance between living things and designed things.

We live in a world where humans modify or even construct genomes using pieces of the genomes of existing creatures. But again: if you are saying that humans designed all living things, you will need to show that humans existed before all such things, which is going to be a bit of a problem for you. There is no empirically demonstrable entity capable of doing the work.

Read Jenny Clack’s book Gaining Ground, look at the dermal skull roofs of Eusthenopteron and the early tetrapods, and tell me why YHWH, ineffable sticker-onner-of-legs, used lobe-finned fish instead of just creating tetrapods. And then empirically demonstrate that your god exists, and has the capacity to do this.

In that particular case, there is no such shuttle (and, if I do not have my physics badly wrong, there almost certainly cannot be one). So we have no need to explain whether it is designed or not. But if one were built by humans, it would have the earmarks of human manufacture; it would arise from human-developed technology, and its parts would have been made by humans in ways which we can understand by seeing how people do work of a similar character.

If we had a PC that could reproduce, and a line of succession in the PC fossil record that showed that the first autonomous transistors, capable of all functions required to maintain themselves “alive,” arose in the Cambrian, diversifying into a broader array of integrated circuits, and that these integrated circuits began to carry features like PC boards, and then to arise in functional clusters, until, by the Devonian, electronic calculators had arisen, whereupon some of those calculators sprouted carrying handles and, through a series of intermediates, became Kaypros, then Osbornes, then PCs; and if we could see in that record such things as the likely common ancestral group of Apple and PC products, and if those things were never known to be built by any design process but were instead always produced by PCs producing gametes which joined with those of other PCs, making an embryonic PC which unfolded, through whatever growth processes would be involved (some HAVE spoken of the possibility of silicon-based life…hmmm…)THEN we would not infer design. That’s the situation we have with living things.

No, of course not. And by the way, “complex” is an adjective. It’s a very flexible adjective, and we use it to describe a lot of things. Cats are complex. Computers are complex. But this does not mean that the complexity of cats is analogous to the complexity of computers in any way that is useful to you.

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That would work (well, not really, but let’s run with it for the moment) if humans were the purported designer. But, unless your theology involves Craig Venter as the Incarnate Logos, I’m guessing that’s not what you’re proposing. No, you’re proposing that some thing which you refuse to attempt to demonstrate the existence of constructed things using an intelligence you cannot show the capabilities of, using tools you cannot show exist or are capable of producing the result. Ghosts, using ghostly intelligence and, presumably, noodly appendages.

Is it? Not according to Behe, whom YOU cited, and who testified that we need to amend our understanding of what is science, and that when we have done this, ID will then get in, along with such fields as astrology.

That’s a silly thing to say, of course, and you know it. But you could silence a lot of these objections if you were to produce a shred of empirical evidence that the forces you attribute living things to have ever done a lick of work – ever – even once in the history of evolution.

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